Some Duskblade questions so I can referee for broken rules

[ShippoWildheart]

My friend, who I talked about last time about how his character kicked the bucket, rolled up a Duskblade as his new character. Only any reluctance did the DM allow it. Of course, after how the DM still got a headache occasionally when it came to how his Fortune's Friend class is supposed to work, I figure I should find out about the Duskblade so I can at least straight out say: that's not how it's supposed to work and keep the game rolling. Also, I do admit he sometimes tries to be a rules lawyer about some things, so best avoid that so the sessions don't derail too much.

I need confirmation on the following things:

1. He said that Duskblades can cast their spells normally; i.e. they don't HAVE to channel it into their weapon(s). (They can cast Scorching Ray like any arcane caster)

2. The channeled spell applies to all attacks at a certain level, but normally it applies only to one strike (I imagine the latter a little like a ToB manuever).

3. He can read arcane scrolls like an arcane caster. He had a silly idea of casting Dominate Person on the Fighter. Can they really do that, provided they meet the INT requirements?

4. He can hold touch spells. He was hypothetically saying how his Duskblade could kill me and my bear, and I said that he can't cast spells if his Duskblade gets grappled. His counter is holding Dimension Hop as a touch spell and touching my bear to send her 40 feet away.



I can't think of anything else that he mentioned about what his Duskblade could do. I'll just post in this thread again if more questions do arise.

[arguskos]

1. Yes.
2. Correct.
3. He can do that, for Duskblade spells, so no Dominate Person without UMD, like anyone else.
4. Any caster can hold touch spells. I'm not super clear about Dimension Hop, but my gut says that if it is a touch spell, he can do that.

[Tanaric]

1. He said that Duskblades can cast their spells normally; i.e. they don't HAVE to channel it into their weapon(s). (They can cast Scorching Ray like any arcane caster)

Duskblades can cast their spells the same as any other caster. They also, from third level onward, have the option of "channeling" a touch range spell through their melee weapon via their Arcane Channeling ability.

2. The channeled spell applies to all attacks at a certain level, but normally it applies only to one strike (I imagine the latter a little like a ToB manuever).

This is correct. Arcane Channeling can be used to channel a spell into a full attack at level 13.

3. He can read arcane scrolls like an arcane caster. He had a silly idea of casting Dominate Person on the Fighter. Can they really do that, provided they meet the INT requirements?

He can use scrolls the same as any other caster. For reference, scrolls.

4. He can hold touch spells. He was hypothetically saying how his Duskblade could kill me and my bear, and I said that he can't cast spells if his Duskblade gets grappled. His counter is holding Dimension Hop as a touch spell and touching my bear to send her 40 feet away.

Holding the charge is an established game term, which you can find on page 141 of your PHB.

Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, the real thing about duskblades that might make some eyes pop, is they are really only designed to do damage. As an example, a Duskblade with a spell storing weapon could: have a shocking grasp stored, cast true strike as a swift action and then power attack for full against an enemy while channeling a second shocking grasp.

You end up with an attack that is almost guaranteed to hit, at full power attack, with an extra 10d6 electricity damage tacked on to boot. Yeah. Don't underestimate the damage dealing potential of a Duskblade.

[ShippoWildheart]

3. He can do that, for Duskblade spells, so no Dominate Person without UMD, like anyone else.

He can use scrolls the same as any other caster. For reference, scrolls.

So can Duskblades read arcane scrolls, but need to make a UMD check? Well that will suck for him. No Dominate Person for him.

Holding the charge is an established game term, which you can find on page 141 of your PHB.

Really off-topic, but does that mean it's technically possible to apply a Bear's Endurance to 6 people with one spell?

Yeah, the real thing about duskblades that might make some eyes pop, is they are really only designed to do damage. As an example, a Duskblade with a spell storing weapon could: have a shocking grasp stored, cast true strike as a swift action and then power attack for full against an enemy while channeling a second shocking grasp.

You end up with an attack that is almost guaranteed to hit, at full power attack, with an extra 10d6 electricity damage tacked on to boot. Yeah. Don't underestimate the damage dealing potential of a Duskblade.

Scary....

[arguskos]

So can Duskblades read arcane scrolls, but need to make a UMD check? Well that will suck for him. No Dominate Person for him.

No, you misunderstand. He can cast any spell on his list off a scroll with just normal scroll activation rules. Anything else, arcane or not, he needs to UMD it, like anyone else.

Really off-topic, but does that mean it's technically possible to apply a Bear's Endurance to 6 people with one spell?

Technically, yes, I believe it is.

Scary....

Not really. Consider that a standard charger build can dish out 100s of damage without trying that hard. A lance charger can deal in the 1000s with a bit of thought. The true Ubercharger deals scientific notation damage. 10d6 isn't really that scary.

Also, it's worth noting that Duskblades can only channel melee touch attacks. No channeling Scorching Ray and whatnot.

[sofawall]

I seem to recall the wording on the level 13 ability saying something about you can apply the spell to every target you hit, but only once, so you have to hit multiple people with your full attack to be awesome. Could be misremembering, though.

[Tanaric]

So can Duskblades read arcane scrolls, but need to make a UMD check? Well that will suck for him. No Dominate Person for him.

If the spell is a) a Duskblade spell, and b) he is of the appropriate level to cast it, he can read the spell from the scroll without issue. If A is not true, then he needs a UMD check. If B is not true, then he needs a caster level check equal to 1+ the caster level of the scroll.

Edit: Ninjas.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Really off-topic, but does that mean it's technically possible to apply a Bear's Endurance to 6 people with one spell?

Only if the spells target entry says "target: x creatures touched" where x is a number higher than 1. I believe bears endurance is limited to one.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Is the OP a druid or ranger?

[ShippoWildheart]

Is the OP a druid or ranger?

Druid (hence my avatar and druish name). Why do you ask?

[PhoenixRivers]

Concerning Scroll Activation:

Here Are the steps you follow with scroll activation:

1) Is the spell the correct magic type (Arcane/Divine)?
..If no, then UMD check is needed, per scroll activation rules (DC20+Caster Level of scroll); Go to Question 3.

If Yes:
2) Is the spell on the character's class list?
..If no, then UMD check is needed, per scroll activation rules (DC20+Caster Level of scroll) Go to question 3.

If Yes:
3) Does the character have the relevant stat to cast the spell (10+Spell level in casting stat)?
..If no, then UMD check is needed, per emulate attribute rules (DC 15+Stat needed, which is DC 25+Spell level)

If Yes:
4) Is the character's Caster Level high enough to cast the spell?
..If no, then a caster level check will be needed, per scroll activation rules (1d20+Caster Level, with DC=Caster Level of the Scroll +1)

If Yes:
..Scroll Can be activated with no other rolls.

[ShippoWildheart]

Concerning Scroll Activation:

Here Are the steps you follow with scroll activation:

1) Is the spell the correct magic type (Arcane/Divine)?
..If no, then UMD check is needed, per scroll activation rules (DC20+Caster Level of scroll)

If Yes:
2) Is the spell on the character's class list?
..If no, then UMD check is needed, per scroll activation rules (DC20+Caster Level of scroll)

If Yes:
3) Does the character have the relevant stat to cast the spell (10+Spell level in casting stat)?
..If no, then UMD check is needed, per emulate attribute rules (DC 15+Stat needed, which is DC 25+Spell level)

If Yes:
4) Is the character's Caster Level high enough to cast the spell?
..If no, then a caster level check will be needed, per scroll activation rules (1d20+Caster Level, with DC=Caster Level of the Scroll +1)

If Yes:
..Scroll Can be activated with no roll.

Thanks! I need to copy paste this for future references.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Druid (hence my avatar and druish name). Why do you ask?

Betcha a dollar* that he's gonna say; because as a druid, you should be able to squish him by belching wrong, or something to that effect.

*not really, I'm so broke it hurts.

[PhoenixRivers]

Thanks! I need to copy paste this for future references.

Note: If you fail 1 or 2, you still need to meet 3.

That is, no matter what, you need the casting stat, or the ability to emulate it.

[Zaydos]

I seem to recall the wording on the level 13 ability saying something about you can apply the spell to every target you hit, but only once, so you have to hit multiple people with your full attack to be awesome. Could be misremembering, though.

Yeah I can't remember if that was a sage advice or errata myself. I do remember looking through duskblades going "This is awesome. So whose smart idea was this, something must be wrong?" Then I went and looked for a ruling. I was sad, I had been looking forward to being a duskblade and using Channeled Vampiric Touch.

[ShippoWildheart]

Yeah I can't remember if that was a sage advice or errata myself. I do remember looking through duskblades going "This is awesome. So whose smart idea was this, something must be wrong?" Then I went and looked for a ruling. I was sad, I had been looking forward to being a duskblade and using Channeled Vampiric Touch.

You CAN channel Vampiric touch, since it's a touch attack spell. Just nothing higher or lower than touch.

[Ranos]

Also, it's worth noting that Duskblades can only channel melee touch attacks. No channeling Scorching Ray and whatnot.

What makes you say that ?

Edit : Actually, after re-reading the entry, it looks like my group has been playing the duskblade wrong. Huh.

[Zaydos]

You CAN channel Vampiric touch, since it's a touch attack spell. Just nothing higher or lower than touch.

I have done so since then, but it doesn't work for smacking the same enemy repetitively which is what I had originally intended/wanted. Actually... I just remembered what caused me to check... I ran an amnizu duskblade (leveled to CR 20) who almost killed a lv 18 party with full channeling vampiric touch (he knocked out the melee combatant in one round). I can see how you thought I meant no channeling Vampiric touch at all, though, as my previous post was badly worded.

[Thrawn183]

Ranged touch is not the same as melee touch spells.

So no channeling rays for duskblades. Though can't spellblades do that?

[Chrono22]

1. He said that Duskblades can cast their spells normally; i.e. they don't HAVE to channel it into their weapon(s). (They can cast Scorching Ray like any arcane caster)

This is correct. Note however, that he must have one free hand to do so, unless he's casting stilled spells or spells that lack a somatic component.

2. The channeled spell applies to all attacks at a certain level, but normally it applies only to one strike (I imagine the latter a little like a ToB manuever.

Yes this is correct. The first successful attack made with the weapon the spell has been channeled into. Note this means you can arcane channel with a net (which uses a touch attack to hit).

3. He can read arcane scrolls like an arcane caster. He had a silly idea of casting Dominate Person on the Fighter. Can they really do that, provided they meet the INT requirements?

He can only use arcane scrolls that are on his class list. I don't think Dominate Person is a Duskblade spell (but I could be mistaken).

4. He can hold touch spells. He was hypothetically saying how his Duskblade could kill me and my bear, and I said that he can't cast spells if his Duskblade gets grappled. His counter is holding Dimension Hop as a touch spell and touching my bear to send her 40 feet away.

This ruling is correct. There are ways around it, however. The first thing he touches (including himself) suffers the effects.
Grab some cover, summon a monster, and let it grapple him. If it dies trying, ok. If it sucks up the dimension hop, good. If it manages to start a grapple, even better- look up the grapple rules for grappling multiple opponents.
Or you could try setting him on fire. When he touches himself to try putting out the flames, he'll end up teleporting himself.


A common mistake duskblade players make is in assuming that spells which use ranged touch attacks to deliver their effects qualify as touch spells. This is not the case- touch spells "have a range of touch". This is the RAW ruling, DM fiat notwithstanding he should not be able to arcane channel scorching rays.

[Douglas]

4. He can hold touch spells. He was hypothetically saying how his Duskblade could kill me and my bear, and I said that he can't cast spells if his Duskblade gets grappled. His counter is holding Dimension Hop as a touch spell and touching my bear to send her 40 feet away.

Yes, he can technically hold touch spells, but it doesn't work like he thinks it does. The held spell goes off on the first thing he touches, no matter what that is, and it dissipates if he casts another spell. Draw a sword? Spell discharges on the sword. Cast Scorching Ray? Held spell dissipates and is wasted. Essentially, if he's holding Dimension Hop he's useless for anything else until he spends it or wastes it.

On the other hand, grappling doesn't actually completely prevent spellcasting. If you have a spell with only a verbal component, you can cast it in a grapple if you succeed on a concentration check DC 20 + spell level.

[sofawall]

On a bit of a side note, channeling Dimension Hop is a great way to get huge amounts of full attacks.

[Sinfire Titan]

About the Channel Spell Ability: A channeled spell with a duration longer than instantaneous has its duration cut to 1 round, making it rather pointless to use spells like Bear's Endurance.

[ShippoWildheart]

On a bit of a side note, channeling Dimension Hop is a great way to get huge amounts of full attacks.

How do you do that?

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do you do that?

There's a tactical feat somewhere (I think it's an FR book) that lets you make a full attack after teleporting into melee range with an enemy. That may be what he's talking about.

[Kurald Galain]

Really off-topic, but does that mean it's technically possible to apply a Bear's Endurance to 6 people with one spell?

Yes, or to 624 people if you cheese it up.

[PhoenixRivers]

If you could get cure spells in there, he'd be an effective army healer, lol.

[Blackfang108]

1. He said that Duskblades can cast their spells normally; i.e. they don't HAVE to channel it into their weapon(s). (They can cast Scorching Ray like any arcane caster)

2. The channeled spell applies to all attacks at a certain level, but normally it applies only to one strike (I imagine the latter a little like a ToB manuever).

3. He can read arcane scrolls like an arcane caster. He had a silly idea of casting Dominate Person on the Fighter. Can they really do that, provided they meet the INT requirements?

4. He can hold touch spells. He was hypothetically saying how his Duskblade could kill me and my bear, and I said that he can't cast spells if his Duskblade gets grappled. His counter is holding Dimension Hop as a touch spell and touching my bear to send her 40 feet away.

1.) Um, duh? He can only channel Range:Touch Spells, he has a lot of spells on his list that are different ranges.
If he's using a 2H weapon, removing a hand and replacing it on the weapon are free actions, so somatic components are Viable.

2.) Sort of: he can only MAKE one attack when he channels a spell. Arcane Channeling is a Standard Action that has one attack as part of it. If he misses, he can hold the charge and try again the next round, with a full attack, but only the first hit will have the spell rider. (If he channels a Full attack(level 13+) the charge is expended at the start of his next round.)

3.) with UMD, yes.

4.) You CAN cast spells while grappled, if there are no somatic components. (Unless he can make a (50+spell level) Concentration check). HOWEVER: if the spell is held, it was already cast, and the "no somatic components while grappling" clause is not invoked. All that's needed is a touch attack. so, hes, walid counter. but Dimension hop Does allow a will save.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yes, or to 624 people if you cheese it up.

For one round. Though that same trick works with Cat's Grace, so feel free to hit 600 archers with it.