Big honkin' parties [Any Edition]

[Lappy9000]

I've got an upcoming game that, much to my displeasure, will have 7-8 players involved. The adventure will be level 1, and most of the players have at least a moderate understanding of the rules, with a couple sporting a more intimate knowledge of the system (It's basically D&D 3.5). That said, I have a question:

How do you personally handle games with many players?

How do you keep things running smoothly? I plan to tell everyone to work out what they're gonna do with their turn in advance, but that tends to be hit or miss. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[dsmiles]

Kill them off one-by-one. The characters...yeah, that's what I meant...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well what my DM does onour 4e table is to get the party to a natural splittinbg point and divide the group, though that doesn't help in most situations.... you can get a side-DM that helps you on combats, we did that once and it worked quite well.

[dsmiles]

Seriously, though, I usually tell people that I'll only take 5 players max. I limit my groups to 5. Period.

[Lappy9000]

Kill them off one-by-one. The characters...yeah, that's what I meant...

Maybe. Heh.

Well what my DM does onour 4e table is to get the party to a natural splittinbg point and divide the group, though that doesn't help in most situations.... you can get a side-DM that helps you on combats, we did that once and it worked quite well.

Splitting them isn't really an option unless someone else comes up to take up the DM mantle, and I've come to believe I'm the only full-time DM in the city (I had to do some schedule swapping to get this game happening once every 2 weeks as it is). I suppose I could try the co-DM, I'm not sure how well it'll go over, though.

Seriously, though, I usually tell people that I'll only take 5 players max. I limit my groups to 5. Period.

The whole thing was a fault on my part.

[dsmiles]

The whole thing was a fault on my part.

Reap what you sow, buddy, reap what you sow...

EDIT: Also, have everybody keep a sheet of random die rolls. A group for each die type works best. That way, they just take the next number on the list when it's their action. No waiting for rolling...

[Lappy9000]

Reap what you sow, buddy, reap what you sow...

I blame the internet >.>

[Duke of URL]

I'd suggest just keeping the tempo going. Although I'm generally not of the type to limit how long my players can take for their next action, with a group this large you might want to put time limits on it (allowing for the occasional lookup in case of an unusual situation).

Tell the players to have good notes or page markers for their abilities and common actions, so they don't have to spend time looking things up.

[valadil]

Most important suggestion. When you call initiative, also call out the player who is on deck. This way they have a whole turn to evaluate the board before getting called up.

If that's not enough, give each turn a time limit. In our 15 person group we used a 45 second limit. You had that much time to announce what you were doing in the turn. Rolling dice could take longer, but you were expected to have your dice grouped up and ready. When the rogue wanted to sneak attack, he'd borrow d6's after being called on deck. If players took longer than 45 seconds, they either lost their turn or were put on delay. I don't think anyone ever actually took longer than 45 seconds, except for the sorcerer who would cast a quickened spell depending on how the first one resolved.

Finally, appoint a rules lawyer. The GM should have the final call on decisions and interpretations. But if a PC can't remember what kind of save Orb of Acid does, he should ask someone else at the table. While that person may not know the text of the spell, he can at least say if it's core, Complete Mage, or Complete Arcane. There's no reason why this question should ever go to the GM if there's a competent rules lawyer at the table.

[Lappy9000]

Good ideas. I've never tried a time limit, but I'll see if I can implement it this time. Everyone tends to have all their dice in advance (I've got more than enough to go around), and I'm trying some new strategies to make the monsters' turn(s) quicker as well (monster cards, etc.)

[valadil]

and I'm trying some new strategies to make the monsters' turn(s) quicker as well (monster cards, etc.)

Got some more suggestions.

For monsters, I really like 4e minions. They cut out the die roll and just to flat damage. You could try that.

I try to run fewer monsters than PCs. I think the players should have more time than the GM. It limits the sort of encounters you can do but ensures the players have more time to shine.

You can also create the illusion that monsters take less time if you break up their initiative. 10 enemies who share the same initiative mean that the players have to wait while you do all of those enemies in a row. If you do 3 of them at a time, then a player goes, then 3 more enemies, you won't have that huge chunk of time where the players are sitting out. I wouldn't advice having an initiative for each enemy (too much overhead), just for each group of enemies. ie, archers, melees, healer, and their commander are grouped so you'd get 4 turns.

Also I find that index cards are better for tracking initiative than a flat list. Write each PC's name on a card. Include a card for each NPC group. Sort these according to initiative. As players spend turns push their card to the back of the stack. Where this shines over a list is players who delay or otherwise alter their initiative. You just remove them from the stack. When they want their turn you put them back in. No more crossed out names and arrows looping all over the place.

[Cyrion]

When I work with groups that big, I rely on the party leader to present the party plans. When they're outside of combat and making their initial schemes, I have only one person present the final plan- cuts down on confusion and kind of forces them to give you an organized sequence of actions.

I usually don't have to actually keep time in combat, especially with players who have some degree of experience, but I don't hesitate to put pressure on someone who's dragging along.

[dsmiles]

Also I find that index cards are better for tracking initiative than a flat list. Write each PC's name on a card. Include a card for each NPC group. Sort these according to initiative. As players spend turns push their card to the back of the stack. Where this shines over a list is players who delay or otherwise alter their initiative. You just remove them from the stack. When they want their turn you put them back in. No more crossed out names and arrows looping all over the place.

My battle map is actually a dry-erase board with a 1"x1" grid carved into it and blackened with marker. It also doubles as an initiative tracker/damage calculator/scratch pad, with each player having a different color marker, and the enemies all share a marker. (Color coded for everyone's convenience.)

EDIT: And all this is for a 5 player group.

[Shademan]

you have 30 seconds to decide what youre gonna do.
three two one GO!

stopwatch and timelimits! works!
sort of

[dsmiles]

you have 30 seconds to decide what youre gonna do.
three two one GO!

stopwatch and timelimits! works!
sort of

As far as time limits go, I use a hourglass-type, 1 minute egg timer. Again, for 5 players...

[DabblerWizard]

Tell the players to have good notes or page markers for their abilities and common actions, so they don't have to spend time looking things up.

Going off of the above suggestion, assuming you have the books you need in hardcover, suggest to your players that they go to the local library and make copies of pages they need to remember, like for powers.

I had one player do this, and they even cut out the specific powers they needed, and glued them all onto one sheet for easy access.

[dsmiles]

Going off of the above suggestion, assuming you have the books you need in hardcover, suggest to your players that they go to the local library and make copies of pages they need to remember, like for powers.

I had one player do this, and they even cut out the specific powers they needed, and glued them all onto one sheet for easy access.

If it's 4e, there are blank 'power cards' that somebody made as a .pdf. I'm sure you can download it somewhere.

[Lappy9000]

If it's 4e, there are blank 'power cards' that somebody made as a .pdf. I'm sure you can download it somewhere.

Nah, everybody's already got that covered. I make sure in advance that everyone understands their abilities and powers, and has it written down for reference. Thanks, though

[Swordgleam]

As far as time limits go, I use a hourglass-type, 1 minute egg timer. Again, for 5 players...

I saw an absolutely fantastic idea in RPT a while back - use a chess timer. The DM and the PCs each get a set amount of time for all their turns in an encounter. If one side runs out of time before the battle is over, the other side gets a free round of actions, and then both timers get reset.

Keeps the players moving fast, keeps the DM moving fast (not that most of us need the help), and simulates the tactical penalties of standing around going, "Uh, what should I do next?" for too long during a fight.

[dsmiles]

I saw an absolutely fantastic idea in RPT a while back - use a chess timer. The DM and the PCs each get a set amount of time for all their turns in an encounter. If one side runs out of time before the battle is over, the other side gets a free round of actions, and then both timers get reset.

Keeps the players moving fast, keeps the DM moving fast (not that most of us need the help), and simulates the tactical penalties of standing around going, "Uh, what should I do next?" for too long during a fight.

This is an excellent idea. You, Miss, deserve a cookie! Now where did I put those cookies...

[maestro78]

Ughhh...normally I haaaaate groups that big because nothing ever gets done. I have seen it work on a regular basis, but only with a ridiculously talented DM.

The only time I've personally been in a group that big and had a good time is when my DM merged his 2 groups for one session. Turns out that the group of evil adventurers that my group had always been one step behind while chasing was actually my DM's other group! We finally caught up to them and had one gigantic, knock-down fight to the end with them that lasted most of the night.

Other than that, 4 PCs and a DM is the way to go for me.

[Another_Poet]

A few tools:

• My solution to the economy of actions when pitting large 3.5 parties vs a solo monster who is supposed to be powerful: here.
  
• The dice in hand rule: when your turn comes up in initiative, you already have your d20 and your damage die/dice in your hand. You roll to-hit and damage all at once, a single roll with all the dice. One roll, announce results, boom. Speeds up combat.
  Corollary: if you are a caster, you have already looked up the spell you're going to cast before your turn starts
  Corollary: if you don't have dice in hand or have not looked up your spell, your turn is skipped. We come back to you at the end of the round.
  
• Enforced time limit. 2 mintues per player turn. If you have not completed your turn within 2 minutes of the DM calling your initiative order, you lose any remaining actions. If you were in the bathroom and aren't back within the 2 minutes you lose your turn.
  
• Talk to the players. Ask them to play constructively and pass the ball. This will help everyone get a share of the spotlight in a big group. If it'll help, offer bonus XP to those who successfully pass the ball at opportune times.
  
• Talk to the players. Tell them you're going to have a hard time running for such a large group, and ask them to keep side-chat and OOC talk to a minimum. Assume all talk is IC unless the player specifies otherwise.
  
• No tapbacks.

[Lappy9000]

Ughhh...normally I haaaaate groups that big because nothing ever gets done. I have seen it work on a regular basis, but only with a ridiculously talented DM.

IE not myself

The only time I've personally been in a group that big and had a good time is when my DM merged his 2 groups for one session. Turns out that the group of evil adventurers that my group had always been one step behind while chasing was actually my DM's other group! We finally caught up to them and had one gigantic, knock-down fight to the end with them that lasted most of the night.

Other than that, 4 PCs and a DM is the way to go for me.

That's hysterical! Must of been a blast (or terrible, depending on how he handled it).

Very Useful Advice

Thankye kindly! However, the bathroom thing would slide considering how myself and another player at the table both have the same condition

[drengnikrafe]

I have a whole list of maximum players under certain circumstances. I will never, under any circumstances, ever again go over 7. Ever. That's only if I know and like all of the players, and I know they work well together. 6 is the normal maximum, and 5 is the preferred (it lets 4 people fill one role each, and one person play whatever the heck the want). There is also a strict 2 newbie limit. If we have more than 2 newbies at the table, things go to hell in a handbasket, and very quickly. Mostly because the newbies outnumber the people who can help them, by and large. And they're really quiet, usually.

The reason why is simple. Once upon a time, I figured I could DM a group of 12 people, including 4 regulars and 8 newbies. No, I'm not kidding. The only time I didn't want to kill myself was the short time during which we were split into 2 groups (I had my most experienced PC play as DM for the other half), and even then there were too many questoins (3 newbies in my group). I vowed to never do it again.

Oh, I almost forgot. I play 3.5.

[Kaun]

I am going to add a +1 to time limits.

The way we do it is 15 seconds from when it becomes there turn to declare there actions.

if they dont declare with in 15 seconds they miss there turn.

If you had trouble implementing time limits before it was your fault.
When it comes to there turn count it, call it and move on. It is suprising how fast your players will pick it up if you take a no bs attitude with it.

[Lappy9000]

If you had trouble implementing time limits before it was your fault.

I don't very much appreciate that.

And for the record, we've never implemented them before 'cause we've never needed it.

[Kaun]

I don't very much appreciate that.

And for the record, we've never implemented them before 'cause we've never needed it.

My apologies I miss read an earlier post and thought you had tried it before and it had not worked.

That said it dosent change the fact that if you want to implament a time limit making it work does rest completely on the shoulders of the DM.
The DM has to draw the line in the sand and stick to it because if the players can get extra time to think about there actions in combat they more then often will take it.

Secondly its not a bad idea to run a little time limit in your head for more rp encounters with npc's. Some players will have a habbit of getting into a conversation with an npc and between sentances spend minutes talking OOC about what to say next.
If your players start to do this have the npc's move the conversation along with out them and if they complaine that they were talking about it ooc and time should move along tell them it does and if they wanted to talk stratergy they should have done it befor the got into the disscusion.

[The Deej]

The time limit isn't a bad idea, but physical timers aren't necessarily needed. In our group (6 players) we are expected to have our actions decided by the time our turn comes up. It usually takes about a minute or two just to go around the board describing actions, which is plenty of time to think of what you're going to do next.

Also, it should be expected that everyone should have all bonuses/penalties for to-hit and AC figured up, to keep things going smoothly.

If people consistently take too long to take their actions, start counting down from 5. When you hit 1, you tell them that their character does nothing this turn, and go on to the next person. That's typically enough incentive to make them decide quicker.

[Lappy9000]

The time limit isn't a bad idea, but physical timers aren't necessarily needed. In our group (6 players) we are expected to have our actions decided by the time our turn comes up. It usually takes about a minute or two just to go around the board describing actions, which is plenty of time to think of what you're going to do next.

Also, it should be expected that everyone should have all bonuses/penalties for to-hit and AC figured up, to keep things going smoothly.

If people consistently take too long to take their actions, start counting down from 5. When you hit 1, you tell them that their character does nothing this turn, and go on to the next person. That's typically enough incentive to make them decide quicker.

Considering there's no actual timer available, I think this is a good idea

[Matthew]

A "caller" was frequently used back in the day with parties heading up into double figures. basically, a leader, making many decisions and such for the party, perhaps after a short debate to keep things moving along. Protocols are a good thing to establish as well.