D&D 3.5: Monks and Gauntlets

[Tusalu]

We had a short discussion (lasting about 1/4 of the session) at my last roleplaying session, about whether or not a monk can get magically enchanced gauntlets, and deal his monk unarmed damage with the item enchancements on. It says in the book that a gauntlet is in effect an unarmed attack, which deals lethal damage. However it seems to make the Amulet of Mighty Fists rather useless. Could really use some second opinion on this...

[Vizzerdrix]

We had a short discussion (lasting about 1/4 of the session) at my last roleplaying session, about whether or not a monk can get magically enchanced gauntlets, and deal his monk unarmed damage with the item enchancements on. It says in the book that a gauntlet is in effect an unarmed attack, which deals lethal damage. However it seems to make the Amulet of Mighty Fists rather useless. Could really use some second opinion on this...

I'm of the opinion that yes, gauntlets are monk friendly.

[dsmiles]

I'm of the opinion that yes, gauntlets are monk friendly.

This. Plus one of my houserules allows monks to use spiked gauntlets as an 'additional' 1d4 damage (the force of their punch, plus the spikes).

[Alejandro]

Technically, a monk is not proficient with the spiked gauntlet (a simple weapon.)

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Did you mean a different kind of gauntlet? And yes, I do know that I am splitting hairs here.

[hamishspence]

Depends on if "ordinary gauntlets" count as simply an upgrade to Unarmed Strike, so can be used with it, without non-proficiency penalties.

Dragon Magazine (monk guide) suggests yes, they can. Hence, with Cold Iron or Silver gauntlets, you can overcome DR, plus use your normal monk unarme strike effects.

[dsmiles]

Technically, a monk is not proficient with the spiked gauntlet (a simple weapon.)

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Did you mean a different kind of gauntlet? And yes, I do know that I am splitting hairs here.

Nope. Spiked Gauntlet. Simple weapon. I just apply a little common sense to the RAW. If you can punch with a bare fist, you can punch with a gauntlet/spiked gauntlet. Like I said, houserule.

[Alejandro]

A totally acceptable houserule. I just wanted clarification. By RAW the monk cannot do that, but houserule says he can.

I can think of other ways to get better results with certain magical items, but spiked gauntlets would certainly be a good choice for low level play.

[dsmiles]

A totally acceptable houserule. I just wanted clarification. By RAW the monk cannot do that, but houserule says he can.

I can think of other ways to get better results with certain magical items, but spiked gauntlets would certainly be a good choice for low level play.

That's exactly why I use it. It's in a low-magic/high-technology campaign world.

[ken-do-nim]

I say absolutely not for flavor reasons. I'd much rather just rule that monk weapons usable in a flurry also deal the monk's unarmed damage.

[Asgardian]

We had a short discussion (lasting about 1/4 of the session) at my last roleplaying session, about whether or not a monk can get magically enchanced gauntlets, and deal his monk unarmed damage with the item enchancements on. It says in the book that a gauntlet is in effect an unarmed attack, which deals lethal damage. However it seems to make the Amulet of Mighty Fists rather useless. Could really use some second opinion on this...

We usually try to stay away from house rules in my group because they come back to bite us in the butt later even if they make sense at the time.

In this case, Monk players just use customized Ki Straps (MIC 113) and enhance those

[JonestheSpy]

Nope. Spiked Gauntlet. Simple weapon. I just apply a little common sense to the RAW. If you can punch with a bare fist, you can punch with a gauntlet/spiked gauntlet. Like I said, houserule.

I'd say no way. Common sense says that punching someone with a spiked gauntlet and a martial arts strike are totally different things. Although I could see a totally plausible houserule about a monk style based around spiked gauntlets, but it'd have to take a feat or something, not just be a freebie.

[Ecalsneerg]

A totally acceptable houserule. I just wanted clarification. By RAW the monk cannot do that, but houserule says he can.

RAW, monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes.

[Person_Man]

Gauntlets are not a special Monk weapon. Thus you cannot use Flurry of Blows while using them.

[ShippoWildheart]

Gauntlets are not a special Monk weapon. Thus you cannot use Flurry of Blows while using them.

I do have to agree though, the rule of common sense says that anything you can punch with (like gauntlets), SHOULD be usable as a weapon by the monk. Dang WoTC and their whacky ruling of how monks are supposed to function.

[Alejandro]

I can see the argument that a spiked gauntlet is not the same. My view is, using a spiked gauntlet to hurt someone doesn't require any special skill, other than being able to punch well. The gauntlet is nothing more than a protective covering for your hand, with spikes to cause impact energy to be released in a smaller area.

Hurting someone seriously with an unarmed, martial arts strike, requires knowledge of edges and body surfaces, pressure points, densities, weak spots, etc. This is what makes some martial arts strikes more deadly than simple fist punching.

Of course, that could bring up another question: if a monk's strike relies a lot on pressure points, nerve cluster locations, targeting skeletal joints, etc, does it work on something immune to critical hits? Just a theory.

[dsmiles]

I can see the argument that a spiked gauntlet is not the same. My view is, using a spiked gauntlet to hurt someone doesn't require any special skill, other than being able to punch well. The gauntlet is nothing more than a protective covering for your hand, with spikes to cause impact energy to be released in a smaller area.

Hurting someone seriously with an unarmed, martial arts strike, requires knowledge of edges and body surfaces, pressure points, densities, weak spots, etc. This is what makes some martial arts strikes more deadly than simple fist punching.

Of course, that could bring up another question: if a monk's strike relies a lot on pressure points, nerve cluster locations, targeting skeletal joints, etc, does it work on something immune to critical hits? Just a theory.

I also use a hit location table for monks. It helps against those pesky undead and their immunity to critical hits. As in, "Hey! That monk just tore off that zombie's arm!" (gives a penalty to the zombie's attacks)

[Alejandro]

Do you allow the fighter to cut off the zombie's arm?

[dsmiles]

Do you allow the fighter to cut off the zombie's arm?

Absolutely! I love hit location tables. I also have one for piercing weapons and one for bludgoening weapons, and one for ranged touch spells, and one for touch spells.

[AtwasAwamps]

I always envisioned that a monk's attacks and the way the dice increased was to represent a monk's increasing skill, rather than strength. He could strike nerve clusters, strike faster, strike more efficiently, etc...in a way that could still affect undead.

By that logic...hrmmm...I'd actually say a gauntlet would HAMPER a monk's unarmed damage! ;) Ever try to do something careful and delicate with your fingers wrapped in a big old glove? Now imagine that glove was made of steel with spikes on it!



I wouldn't make that ruling generally, but it's funny to think about.

[dsmiles]

Now imagine that glove was made of steel with spikes on it!

That could be painful...

[AtwasAwamps]

That could be painful...

Get your mind out of the gutter.

[Otodetu]

The monk is sort of ****ty so i see no reason to gimp the monk by disallowing enhanced gauntlets (or you know; some sort of battle-gear item, with knuckles and kneepads and similar items, but still one items.)

[Doc Roc]

We had a short discussion (lasting about 1/4 of the session) at my last roleplaying session, about whether or not a monk can get magically enchanced gauntlets, and deal his monk unarmed damage with the item enchancements on. It says in the book that a gauntlet is in effect an unarmed attack, which deals lethal damage. However it seems to make the Amulet of Mighty Fists rather useless. Could really use some second opinion on this...

RAW, they are not.

Ignore this.

Seriously, ignore it and just allow it. Lie back, and think of England.

[Tiktakkat]

Common sense says that punching someone with a spiked gauntlet and a martial arts strike are totally different things.

Okinawan martial artists would beg to differ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekko

Likewise Japanese and Filipino martial artists as per the yawara link.

I have used a chize kun bo mentioned in that article.

So there are actual real-world Asian martial arts fist-load type weapons, which as just a step away from gauntlets.

However . . .

The Magic Item Compendium features a particular weapon called the Scorpion Kama as part of the Gharyn's Monastic Array magic item set. (A new concept introduced in the book. This weapon has a special ability of doing damage equal to your unarmed strike damage (if greater of course).
This special ability is not given a specific price, but assuming there is no discount for it being part of a set, backward engineering gives a value of 4,000 gp to add it to a weapon, assuming you want to put it on some other monk weapon.

[Tusalu]

Gauntlets are not a special Monk weapon. Thus you cannot use Flurry of Blows while using them.

I know. I mentioned this as well. But the counter-argument was that it says in the Gauntlet description, that it functions like an unarmed strike.
Basically the discussion is about whether or not, the fact the weapon is classified as an unarmed strike would allow a monk to use it with all the same benefits of an unarmed strike as well as the benefits of a manufactured weapon (allowing it to be enhanced). Also it would create some counterintuitive situations like the weapon bonus applying on the Circle Kick and Flying Kick attacks... My personal view of this is that enchancing unarmed attacks is already covered by the Amulet of Mighty Fists, but most of the group disagrees.

[AtwasAwamps]

So there are actual real-world Asian martial arts fist-load type weapons, which as just a step away from gauntlets.

You kiddin'?

You don't see the inherent difference in the way a fist-load weapon works and a giant honking glove made of metal would work, especially in the hands of a skilled martial artist? It's not a step away, it's a nigh-different world.

Gauntlets are NOT a fist load weapon. They are not even weapons in the technical sense. They are armor that can be utilized as weaponry. DnD makes the allowance (understandably and effectively) for gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, shields, and spiked armor to be used as weaponry, but that doesn't change the reality of it.

Personally, I think the idea of a monk using spiked gauntlets it ludicrous. It's clumsy and inelegant. I would much rather give them enchanted gloves or handwraps and houserule those into existence instead of saying "Your skilled martial artist now wears stupid looking metal oven mitts! Enjoy!"

[Ravens_cry]

Personally, I think the idea of a monk using spiked gauntlets it ludicrous. It's clumsy and inelegant. I would much rather give them enchanted gloves or handwraps and houserule those into existence instead of saying "Your skilled martial artist now wears stupid looking metal oven mitts! Enjoy!"

Depends, I think with a massive bruiser type of monk, like a boxing sumo wrestler, spiked gauntlets would fit the flavour PERFECTLY. In fact, I want to do it some time.

[AtwasAwamps]

Depends, I think with a massive bruiser type of monk, like a boxing sumo wrestler, spiked gauntlets would fit the flavour PERFECTLY. In fact, I want to do it some time.

But see, I'd build that guy as a fighter, not a monk. Hence where we differ in our interpretations of a class. A monk, to me, isn't a brawler or a wrestler.

[Ravens_cry]

But see, I'd build that guy as a fighter, not a monk. Hence where we differ in our interpretations of a class. A monk, to me, isn't a brawler or a wrestler.

I think the classes in 3.5 are broad enough that either could be the case.

[AtwasAwamps]

I think the classes in 3.5 are broad enough that either could be the case.

Agreed, I'm just saying that I interpret the monk differently and that reflects my comments in the thread.