Train system in a fantasy setting?

[Ozreth]

Anybody have an idea of how I could implement some sort of train system into a fantasy setting? Would steam be weird? Maybe Kobold slaves cylcing some sort cart system.....I dunno.

[Serenity]

See the Eberron Campaign Setting; the Lightning Rail is the most prominent example in current D&D.

[Ravens_cry]

I would make it an ordinary steam train, but with a fire elemental as the energy source. And make them chatty, like Calcifer from Howls Moving Castle, argumentative and curmudgeonly with the trains driver. That's what I would do any way.

[Another_Poet]

Iron Kingdoms campaign setting has mundane steam engines, which manage to mesh well with an otherwise very 1500's-esque "full metal fantasy" setting. Two of the five major nations have very extensive rail systems that are crucial to their military.

[Alejandro]

You don't even need to burn coal or generate steam. Have some wizards create a stone or metal golem that is a large gear, and hook it into an engine-like vehicle. The golem obeys the engineer, who can tell it to turn at various speeds, or stop, or reverse. Then, it's just a matter of mechanics to hook the endless source of energy to the rest of the engine.

[ericgrau]

There's gotta be some way to do this, but FWIW 1 fire elemental isn't hot enough. Even a large fire elemental is only twice alchemist's fire.

Maybe you could figure out a way to get a longer duration on animate objects or create a very expensive custom magic item. Assuming they run most of the time in a clear, straight path, they could move 240 feet per round which is 27 mph.

1 or more strong golems or pack animals turning a crank or pushing a giant wheel could work. The speed of the train would be equal to the lifting speed of the golem (its height per round) times the maximum weight it can lift divided by the weight of the train and again divided by the coefficient of friction of the wheels. About 0.10 is reasonable for the friction coefficient, and dividing by 0.10 is the same as multiplying by 10. But initial acceleration would be extremely low unless you installed a super complicated transmission to shift gears.

EDIT: A 29 strength stone golem might move a 4200 lbs. car (including 2000 lbs. of golem) at a rate of 10 ft. * 1400 lbs. / 4200 lbs. * 10 ~= 30 feet per round. Not very impressive.

[Evard]

For inside a city...Set up a pulley like system and have slaves/workers (lots) pull the carts back and forth. The carts could hold 50 - 100 people depending on how many are pulling the ropes, if the Egyptians could move huge a%% boulders then this should be simple.

[]-------{}------[]

the boxes on the ends are where the slaves/workers will be pulling from and the thing in the middle is the cart. Inside the boxes is also where the pulley systems are located to make it easier to pull the cart.
This can lead to a few things like the PC's must free a slave from working there or they have to protect the railway or even the PC's could work at the railway for some extra money
And yes the cart is on railroad tracks :P. I would think the cart would look something like a trolley but made of light wood.

[Ravens_cry]

For inside a city...Set up a pulley like system and have slaves/workers (lots) pull the carts back and forth. The carts could hold 50 - 100 people depending on how many are pulling the ropes, if the Egyptians could move huge a%% boulders then this should be simple.

[]-------{}------[]

the boxes on the ends are where the slaves/workers will be pulling from and the thing in the middle is the cart. Inside the boxes is also where the pulley systems are located to make it easier to pull the cart.
This can lead to a few things like the PC's must free a slave from working there or they have to protect the railway or even the PC's could work at the railway for some extra money
And yes the cart is on railroad tracks :P. I would think the cart would look something like a trolley but made of light wood.

Use undead. Everything is better with masses of Zombie/Skeleton workers.

[Mando Knight]

Use undead. Everything is better with masses of Zombie/Skeleton workers.

The overlord might be damned to the Abyss for all eternity, but at least he made the trains run on time.

[ericgrau]

Well they're a lot lighter than golems, and maybe enough of them could get the same 1400 lbs. lifting capacity without weighing 2000 lbs themselves. That'd boost the above train speed to something more reasonable. EDIT: Nope, assuming 12 strength and 10 of them to equal the golem, they weigh about 1500 lbs. together. Train still moves at 30 feet a round, or up to 90 if we can somehow make it very light and without any cargo.

[Ravens_cry]

The overlord might be damned to the Abyss for all eternity, but at least he made the trains run on time.

Yep. Or use those who die of old age. They can't be raised anyway, and it's an excellent way to pay off old debts without leaving them to your descendants. Think of it as a final service to the community. I admit the sight of a rotting old gaffer or granny in a treadwheel may disturb some, so I recommend skeletons. Also, they are faster. Get a few of the more pragmatic churches on your side, and you have a mass power system that hurts no one, and pollutes nothing. It would be a new age of production and prosperity, with products and services once exclusive to the rich now available to almost all. It would be glorious!
Make sure you find a way to synthesize black onyx though, or there's going to be massive shortages.

[subject42]

There's gotta be some way to do this, but FWIW 1 fire elemental isn't hot enough. Even a large fire elemental is only twice alchemist's fire.

It only needs to get it hot enough to make the water boil.

That being said, if you need hotter, why not a bound demon with access to hellfire?

[Ozreth]

I want to have something that a lowly group of thieves would have trouble getting onto and/or paying for, something a little more extravagant and upper class. I think Ill use a train with a golem working the gears, good idea. Thanks!

[Radar]

I want to have something that a lowly group of thieves would have trouble getting onto and/or paying for, something a little more extravagant and upper class. I think Ill use a train with a golem working the gears, good idea. Thanks!

Build Maglev via permanent Reverse Gravity and a pack of Air Elementals or something like that to pull the thing.

[Alejandro]

I want to have something that a lowly group of thieves would have trouble getting onto and/or paying for, something a little more extravagant and upper class. I think Ill use a train with a golem working the gears, good idea. Thanks!

It's going to have to have significant power, though, to go at any rate of speed. Someone else posted the calculations.

I have used a similar concept for a steamboat. Golems turning the paddlewheels.

[SilveryCord]

Trains aren't *that* complicated to build, and in a world filled with blacksmiths and magicians, surely a simplistic train system doesn't break verisimilitude. Wagonways (tracks that wagons pulled by animals followed) were around before Jesus's time, and steam powered trains were first built in 1784. Surely you can just say "a wizard did it"

[Justin B.]

Each conductor of the train must have ranks in UMD to activate the wand of levitating. Because the caster level of the wand must be so high, there are only a few wizards out there who can make it, or whatever. UMD is specialized training, which might be expensive.

Either way, the car is tethered to a metal tube, with a turbine inside, which is attached to a track. Inside the metal tube it a permancied spell Cyclonic Blast, from the spell compendium. This spell creates a sideways tornado, which spins the turbine, pulling air through, and generating thrust. speed is controlled by a variable shutter on the front and back of the turbine.

Depending on the magic level of your world, this could be a very expensive system to run, so there's your social limiting factor. Only the wealthy can fford to pay the high prices that the operators charge for training and maintaining such extravagant magic!

[Ravens_cry]

It's going to have to have significant power, though, to go at any rate of speed. Someone else posted the calculations.

I have used a similar concept for a steamboat. Golems turning the paddlewheels.

That was actually done, with horses rather then golems, but same difference.

[Kzickas]

The overlord might be damned to the Abyss for all eternity, but at least he made the trains run on time.

The one big advantage to combining trains with fantasy settings is that when you have stuff like liquid pain you can probably get time in some physical form with the right tools, then you can make the trains literally run on time

[Ravens_cry]

The one big advantage to combining trains with fantasy settings is that when you have stuff like liquid pain you can probably get time in some physical form with the right tools, then you can make the trains literally run on time

With rather more drastic repercussions when you run OUT of time, I would imagine.

[Grumman]

It costs 16,660 gp to hire someone to animate a Gargantuan object that can hustle 100 feet per round (~11 MPH) continuously without tiring. It can carry 2,800 pounds of cargo or (using the rules from the Arms and Equipment Guide) 11,200 pounds of carriages and cargo, without losing speed.

[Moglorosh]

This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. If a golem turns a crank and pulls a freight train across countries, then that's what happens. Why are we getting hung up on how much one golem could technically carry, or how hot a fire elemental burns? Why do we care how much gold a rail system would cost?

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that this is in fact a serious question and in no way should be construed as anything mean-spirited or otherwise.

[Ozreth]

Im not too concerned with costs and numbers and all that to run the train. Ill charge the players to ride, other than that we are assuming its all being taken care of by the city. This place is huge and will be the only place the NPCs are in for awhile, got too much to worry about already on top of the upkeep of a functioning trian ha. I just want the look and feel of it to be believable is all.

[Ozreth]

This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. If a golem turns a crank and pulls a freight train across countries, then that's what happens. Why are we getting hung up on how much one golem could technically carry, or how hot a fire elemental burns? Why do we care how much gold a rail system would cost?

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that this is in fact a serious question and in no way should be construed as anything mean-spirited or otherwise.

I agree whole heartedly. I was really just trying to think of a genre of train/transportation and means of powering it that would fit a generic fantasy settling. Could care less about number crunching heh. Although I appreciate all of the help.

[Ellisande]

This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. ...

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

I don't look at the listed costs in the book, nor do I do intensive number-crunching to make it work, but it matters because I expect my world to hang together coherently.
In the example given, a world with cheap enough access to fire elementals would have them not only pulling trains, but powering factories and tractors. On the other hand, if it's ridiculously expensive, there won't be a train system at all, at least not as more than toys for billionaires with more money than sense. And either one of these possibilities has a thousand effects on and implications about the rest of society as well.

(In practice, though, I usually do it backwards from this; I decide on the key things that I want in the world, and determine prices and everything else from there... and that's my advice for Ozreth--do you want a pseudo-technological Elemental Train? A slave-drawn tram? Levitating magical carpets? A technological monstrosity of some sort? What best fits the flavour of your city/setting?)

[Ozreth]

(In practice, though, I usually do it backwards from this; I decide on the key things that I want in the world, and determine prices and everything else from there... and that's my advice for Ozreth--do you want a pseudo-technological Elemental Train? A slave-drawn tram? Levitating magical carpets? A technological monstrosity of some sort? What best fits the flavour of your city/setting?)

Hmm, its a port city, in the flavor of Luskan from FR.

[AslanCross]

Eberron's lightning rail system is suspended and guided by a series of electric repulsion stones. It's propelled by a bound air elemental producing thrust.

[Frozen_Feet]

The whole thing makes me think about Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks. You can use the awesome piece of fluff that the rail network is the binding shackles of an ancient demon king.

[ericgrau]

It only needs to get it hot enough to make the water boil.

... only if you want no pressure at all from the steam, which is fairly useless. Like a pressure cooker the boiling temperature goes up when you apply pressure. Higher pressure means you need a higher temperature.

I'm thinking that putting together some trick to pull this off is both inaccurate and irrelevant. If you're the DM, simply declare the train to exist. The only matter is figuring out a fair price. Maybe a continuous "magic item" of animate objects, 11x6x2000x4=528,000 gp which animates as many cars as the spell would animate. Dang, that ain't cheap. But maybe still reasonable for a kingdom to own one, or a party of 20th level adventurers to split.

This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds?.

Because then every PC with a summon spell or planar binding or w/e will own a 528,000 gp train once you explain things this way. It works great if you want to make your own rules and say elementals are rare creatures and no you can't have one. But once you start messing with a system that already has rules for these things you're opening the door either for abuse or for implausibility ("You can't summon a fire elemental for your own train because I said so!").

[Moglorosh]

Because then every PC with a summon spell or planar binding or w/e will own a 528,000 gp train once you explain things this way. It works great if you want to make your own rules and say elementals are rare creatures and no you can't have one. But once you start messing with a system that already has rules for these things you're opening the door either for abuse or for implausibility ("You can't summon a fire elemental for your own train because I said so!").

It would be more like "every PC with a summon spell, the engineering expertise necessary, and materials needed" will own a train. Preventing that is as simple as not allowing them access to the blueprints.