Maxed AC/Defensive Fighter help

[Gruul]

So for a game i am making a maxed out AC/Defensive Fighter (duh) startig at 20
Just want to make sure i didn't miss something
9 fighter/1 Dwarf Fighter/10 Dwf Def

Feats/abilities:
1-Dwarven Armour Prof (battle plate)
1-Exotic Shield Prof(Extreme Steal Shield)
2-Shield Specialization (Above) - +1 shield AC
3-Shield Ward (Shield AC to Touch and resist for bull rush, trip, grapple, disarm and Overrun)
4-Active Shield Defense
6-Toughness
6-Endurance
8-Heavy Armour Expertise - +1 Armour AC
9-Dodge - +1 Dodge
10-Heavy Armour Optimization - +1 Armour AC
11-Defensive Stance 1/day
11-+1 AC
12-Greater Heavy Armour optimization - +1 Armour AC
12- Uncanny Dodge
13-Defensive Stance 2/day
14-+2 AC
14-Trap Sense 1
15-Armour Specialization(Heavy) - DR 2/-
15-Defensive Stance 3/day
16-DR 3/-
16-Improved Uncanny Dodge
17-Defensive Stance 4/day
17-+3 AC
18-Roll With it DR 2/-
18-Mobile Defence
18-Trap Sense 2
19-Defensive Stance 5/day
20-DR 6/-
20-+4 AC

Magic Stuff:
+5 Ghost Touch Battle Plate of Greater Healing
+5 Extreme Steal Shield of Heavy Fortification
+5 Keen, Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shocking Dwarven War Axe
+5 Defending Gauntlets
+5 Defending Shield Spikes
+5 Defending Net Cutter Spikes
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Amulet of Natural Armour
Ring Of Sustenance
Clock or Resistance
Belt of Giants Strength +6
Pink Rhomboid Iuon Stone
Skin of the defender + 4 to Natural Armour

hmmm...
74 AC
DR 10/-

that right?

[Rasman]

So for a game i am making a maxed out AC/Defensive Fighter (duh) startig at 20
Just want to make sure i didn't miss something
9 fighter/1 Dwarf Fighter/10 Dwf Def

Feats/abilities:
1-Dwarven Armour Prof (battle plate)
1-Exotic Shield Prof(Extreme Steal Shield)
2-Shield Specialization (Above) - +1 shield AC
3-Shield Ward (Shield AC to Touch and resist for bull rush, trip, grapple, disarm and Overrun)
4-Active Shield Defense
6-Toughness
6-Endurance
8-Heavy Armour Expertise - +1 Armour AC
9-Dodge - +1 Dodge
10-Heavy Armour Optimization - +1 Armour AC
11-Defensive Stance 1/day
11-+1 AC
12-Greater Heavy Armour optimization - +1 Armour AC
12- Uncanny Dodge
13-Defensive Stance 2/day
14-+2 AC
14-Trap Sense 1
15-Armour Specialization(Heavy) - DR 2/-
15-Defensive Stance 3/day
16-DR 3/-
16-Improved Uncanny Dodge
17-Defensive Stance 4/day
17-+3 AC
18-Roll With it DR 2/-
18-Mobile Defence
18-Trap Sense 2
19-Defensive Stance 5/day
20-DR 6/-
20-+4 AC

Magic Stuff:
+5 Ghost Touch Battle Plate of Greater Healing
+5 Extreme Steal Shield of Heavy Fortification
+5 Keen, Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shocking Dwarven War Axe
+5 Defending Gauntlets
+5 Defending Shield Spikes
+5 Defending Net Cutter Spikes
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Amulet of Natural Armour
Ring Of Sustenance
Clock or Resistance
Belt of Giants Strength +6
Pink Rhomboid Iuon Stone
Skin of the defender + 4 to Natural Armour

hmmm...
74 AC
DR 10/-

that right?

I hope this is going to be low magic, because...well...I can see you suddenly starting to beat on your friends because a demon thinks it would be funny

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Skin of the Defender and an Amulet of Natural Armor both grant an Enhancement bonus, so they won't stack.

Every opponent is going to just run right by this character and attack someone who's easier to hit. There are much, much better options for making tanky characters, Dwarven Defender is never worth using, and the idea of an AC tank is inherently flawed. Go with something that's a bit less one-sided, because a character with such limited offensive capabilities will not contribute anything to defeating an encounter.

[Eloel]

I hope this is going to be low magic, because...well...I can see you suddenly starting to beat on your friends because a demon thinks it would be funny

I can see a -insert flying race here-, -insert archer class here- smacking this guys' ass back and forth.

Or a level6 warlock with Fell Flight invocation.

[AgentPaper]

I can see a -insert flying race here-, -insert archer class here- smacking this guys' ass back and forth.

Or a level6 warlock with Fell Flight invocation.

How about a level 1 pixie with a slingshot?

[Eloel]

How about a level 1 pixie with a slingshot?

Eventually the pixie'll roll a bunch of nat20s in a row. This guy? He can only watch.

[Temotei]

Get some massive Con bonuses for hit points and you have a better defensive fighter. Note: 36,000 gp for +6 enhancement bonus to Con. Having items that enhance healing ability or defensive capabilities helps a lot too. A minor cloak of displacement gives 20% miss chance constantly. 24,000 gp.

Also note: Miss chances are way better than AC. Reason: They apply no matter what--natural 20? Who cares. Miss chance wins.

I'm sure others on the board can provide a better build than you've given though. No offense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is it me, or does that seem like an awful lot of +6 weapons?

[alisbin]

you need some + to save (will especially) items, or immunity to mind affecting and some elemental damage reduction. and some way to make sure that enemies actually engage you, it would be REALLY easy for an enemy to just decide "huh, he's not moving, not really hurting anyone much and that caster over there just looks so much more soft and delicious *nomnomnomnom*, mmmm fillet of wizard"

[Zaydos]

First off 74 AC is a bit of a waste. Even Great Wyrm Red Dragons only have +49 to hit base. A DM that wants to make them appropriately lethal will instead of boosting their melee to hit your AC focus on their other abilities to toast you without bothering with AC.

Also knowing your touch AC without wading through all the modifiers would be nice.

Okay since the skin doesn't stack get rid of it for something that actually helps you; maybe a Crystal Mask of Mind Shielding. Also if you're using MiC use its item combination rules to make your Amulet of Nat Armor also work as Amulet of Health (no need to pay the 2x from Ioun Stone) and make it stronger. If not just make it part of the Amulet of Nat Armor for the +2000 GP. If you aren't allowed that I'm sorry.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Toughness? Really?

[Human Paragon 3]

The AC is useless unless you have a way of insuring that you are attacked. Knight instead of fighter grabs you knight's challenge. There's also the goad feat in, I think, complete adventurer. Knight will also give you a couple shield-related bonus feats. A knight/fighter multiclass would be good for this. Or Knight 20. Gets you the ability to not die. And a d12 HD.

If you take no other advice, at least switch Toughness for Improved Toughness.

[ZeroNumerous]

Clock or Resistance

Generally speaking, I'd pick Resistance over the Clock, but I'd have to know what you are resisting before I get into specifics.

[imperialspectre]

Since you're playing outside of core, what books exactly are allowed? Generally speaking, outside core, if your touch AC isn't nearly as high as your normal AC, you're wasting your time against monsters that focus on doing melee damage. Things like wraithstrike, the spell that makes all your weapons into lightsabers (gives them brilliant energy), and the Emerald Razor maneuver from ToB mean that at level 20, practically nobody has been making real attack rolls for a long time.

Also, as others have pointed out:

1) AC is one of the most expensive defenses to optimize, because the stat that directly opposes it (BAB) scales automatically with HD and AC does not. Additionally, many monsters have HD that are vastly disproportionate to CR, giving them a BAB and Strength bonus that pump their attack bonus way beyond what you can cheaply counter with AC.

2) At most levels of optimization, AC benefits you less than 3 of the other 4 defenses (3 saves + HP). Fortitude saves keep you from dying or being rendered combat-ineffective, Will saves keep you from being turned against your teammates, and HP applies to all direct-damage attacks and not just ones that target AC. At particularly high levels of optimization, this ceases to be true, because people put out levels of damage that instagib you, and everyone has extremely good saves - however, at that level of optimization, the "fighter" class is rare and the "dwarven defender" class is extinct.

3) AC is very easy to circumvent, as noted before - many people can reliably catch you flat-footed, and at high levels almost everyone can target touch AC. It's also very easy to replace, unlike every other defense - there are very few ways to do something that replaces a save, and most of them require either a level investment or feat and are usable very few times per encounter. Effects that give miss chances or make you untargetable, however, completely replace AC for the duration of the effect. At high levels, many of these effects are countered by True Seeing; however, Darkstalkers (which is everyone who uses Hide/MS and is allowed access to Lords of Madness) and people with access to Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank (nearly all arcane casters, as well as everyone who has UMD) are more or less in the "can't touch this" category even if they have AC 10.

4) On the tactical level, nobody cares if you have AC that can't be hit. Seriously, nobody at all. Practically all high-level monsters that matter can tell that you're loaded with things that make you hard to hit, and the dumb ones will figure it out after swiping ineffectually at you a couple times. Since you don't pose any threat to them, they'll jump/fly/walk/teleport over/around you to your squishier teammates. If they're feeling particularly cruel, they'll stunlock you first, and all you'll be able to do is watch.

5) If you want to be a badass, don't load up on AC. Grab a couple mystical gadgets that make it a little harder to hit you, tank up on HP, get Steadfast Determination and other stuff to make you not fail Will saves, and then put the rest of your resources into bashing the hell out of anyone who would dare threaten your teammates. The enemies will pay attention to you, because you're a threat to their continued existence*, and hopefully you'll last long enough to beat down a couple of them and give your teammates time to beat down the others.

6) 74 AC is pretty easy to get to, with fewer resources expended, if you're a cleric. It's slightly harder to get to, but still requires fewer resources, if you're a fighter who has a cleric friend. At any rate, trading your melee badassery for shiny shiny buffs from your "friends" is a classic ploy of fighters who want to have nice things at high levels, and I recommend that you exploit it.

[herrhauptmann]

-Drop 2 levels of DD and pick up Deepwarden. It nets you con to AC. Now that +6 con item people are suggesting also nets you +3 AC.
-Are you SURE all those sources of DR stack?
-Weapon: Drop the flaming, frost, shock. Flaming and frost are probably two of the biggest immunities in the game, and at that level pretty much everything's going to have resist 10 or so. Keen isn't much use unless you're doing A LOT of attacks a round, boosting your chances of rolling a 19 or 20.
Instead take magebane, or holy, or ghost strike.
-Pick up some Augment crystals for your weapon and armor. I bet your touch ac is pretty low, there's a crystal that'll boost your touch ac vs incorporeal attacks, get it.
-Put blueshine and everbright on your weapons and armor (don't forget spikes). All that effort into purchasing 'defending weapons' will suck if your first fight is against a trio of rust monsters.
-Get yourself a secondary weapon that's not slashing, as well a ranged weapon. (see comments: Enemies bypass you)
-Try to have your saves at above a +12, anything less and they're useless.
-Swap toughness for improved toughness. Gives you an extra 17 HP, and only a jerk DM will say it doesn't count for DD.
-There's at least 2 other forms of Dodge that grant you your prereqs for DD, use them.
-Boot slot is wide open. How about a custom item of haste? Granted you'll be using an action every 5 rounds to reactivate it, but it boosts your speed, gives you an extra attack at highest modifier. Or steadfast boots. So long as you've got a 2 handed slashing weapon, you make an AOO on someone who charges you, before he actually makes his attack.
-Take a look at Exotic Weapon Master. Since you've got the D. waraxe, you can qualify for EWM. See if any of the tricks suit your fancy.

[Zaydos]

-Drop 2 levels of DD and pick up Deepwarden. It nets you con to AC. Now that +6 con item people are suggesting also nets you +3 AC.

It gets Con instead of Dex to AC; doesn't say anything about how it works with Maximum Dex Bonus from armor. So it depends upon the DM's ruling there. If it's not capped by armor, go for it.

[herrhauptmann]

It gets Con instead of Dex to AC; doesn't say anything about how it works with Maximum Dex Bonus from armor. So it depends upon the DM's ruling there. If it's not capped by armor, go for it.

That's true, run it past the DM. Or try and pick up Fist of the Forest, which gives Con to AC as a bonus (like how monks get wis to AC). Take both and you SHOULD be able to get con to AC twice.

Also:
-pick up shocktrooper. You'll have to lose a few of your other feats to do it, causing your AC and DR to drop a little losing all those feats. Then make attacks using large amounts of Power Attack. You can use heedless charge to drop your AC instead of your attack. 15 points of power attack will drop your AC into the high 50s, (still very respectable), and give you a nice boost to damage.

Also, make your shield dancing. Now it will grant you AC and allow you to attack with two handed weapons. Combine that with shock trooper and it'll get you even more damage per attack. (yes, I'm directing you towards a mini-charger build)

[Roderick_BR]

I hope this is going to be low magic, because...well...I can see you suddenly starting to beat on your friends because a demon thinks it would be funny

Ring of Mental Fortitude, DMG2. Makes you immune to mind affecting spells and abilities. Pretty much mindblank on a ring. Invaluable for high level meelers.

Now he needs a way to see invisible, and a ranged option.

I second trading that +6 ring for a ring of blinking. I think somewhere you can get a major blinking effect.

[herrhauptmann]

I second trading that +6 ring for a ring of blinking. I think somewhere you can get a major blinking effect.

Don't forget that if you're blinking, you'll have a miss chance to your own attacks of 20%. That'll further reduce your damage output, but the +2 you get for being effectively invisible should help negate the 20% for the most part.

[AslanCross]

Dwarven Defender is one of the most useless PrCs out there. Its requirements are tough, and its key class feature is only ever useful in a tunnel that you can block completely. Any monster with reach or with a high movement speed can flank you and get at the softies behind you.

What books are available to you?

Btw, watch your touch AC.

[ericgrau]

Who said he ever has to use defensive stance? Or that he must maintain it even if he does by accident? Dropping it is a free action. It's impossible to actually be unable to move when you need to. If he ditches defensive stance altogether, the PrC is good purely for the AC, saves, HP, improved uncanny dodge and some minor DR. In case he ever does get into a 15 foot wide or narrower hallway, which isn't all that uncommon in dungeons, he can stand in the middle and defensive stance is just icing on the cake.

It gets Con instead of Dex to AC; doesn't say anything about how it works with Maximum Dex Bonus from armor. So it depends upon the DM's ruling there. If it's not capped by armor, go for it.

It is capped by max dex bonus to AC. Besides the rules text saying that it works like dex bonus to AC, a sage answer also clears this up.

[Eldariel]

It is capped by max dex bonus to AC. Besides the rules text saying that it works like dex bonus to AC, a sage answer also clears this up.

Well, Sage-answers are...unreliable at best. But yeah, that seems to be the intent. Though that makes the whole class feature's benefit quite questionable, other than for unarmored characters (though of course, it's the classic combo with Fist of the Forests).

[ericgrau]

It lets you dump dex. That doesn't suck. Though in high stat games even your low stat may be plenty, making it less useful. And what do you expect from a 1 level dip? Yeah, sage answers and FAQ aren't perfect, but at the least they're usually worth consideration and a great majority seem right.

[Eldariel]

It lets you dump dex. That doesn't suck. Though in high stat games even your low stat may be plenty, making it less useful. Yeah, sage answers and FAQ aren't perfect, but at the least they're usually worth consideration and a great majority seem right.

Well, a Dwarf Fighter only needs 10 Dex to max out Full-Plate and Mithril Full-Plate rather efficiently (4k for Full, eventually 36k for Mithril Full, and since you want those Dex-boosters for Init and Ref anyways, it's not even much of a loss), which is what they'll probably be using anyways given the AC they provide...

Well, you're right, there's one "standard" use for it; it enables you to trade some AC away and use a lighter armor for better mobility. Except you're a Dwarf anyways and thus ignore heavy armor penalties... But I guess if you're a Stoneblessed...but claiming that a class was optimized for use through Stoneblessed feels kinda silly, so I guess this argument doesn't hold water either.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It is capped by max dex bonus to AC. Besides the rules text saying that it works like dex bonus to AC, a sage answer also clears this up.

To be fair, the Sage is not RAW and has been known to "make" "rulings" that "contradict" "RAW."


I may have gone overboard on the quotations; forgive me.

[jiriku]

As far as it goes, your build is pretty good. However, it needs to go farther. Others have given you lots of specific advice to take this class or that feat or some piece of gear. I'll give general advice on design philosophy.

Defensively, you need to address the following avenues of attack in order to protect yourself at high levels:
Save-or-Die effects, usually targeting your Fortitude save
Save-or-Be-Controlled effects, usually targeting your Will save
Save-or-Be-Immobilized effects, usually targeting your Reflex save
Simple attacks, targeting your AC
touch attacks, targetting your touch AC
Barrier spells, creating walls or other obstacles to enclose you

There are other types of attacks that can neutralize or kill you, but those are the most common.

And as others have pointed out, it's not enough just to survive. You need to do stuff to so that your team wins. High-level opponents are often smart and mobile, and will simply avoid you if you present no threat. You'll need to be able to overcome the following types of common defenses in order to be a credible threat:
Large pools of hp and damage reduction, so you must deal mucho damage
High AC and high touch AC, so you must either hit accurately or be able to affect the enemy without rolling to hit.
High saves, so you must impose high save DCs or be able to affect the enemy without a save.
Miss chance, you'll need to bypass it or make lots of attacks to compensate.
Mobility, especially the ability to fly and teleport, so you need to be equally mobile or have effective ranged attacks.
Stealth, so you'll need methods for locating your foes.

[Person_Man]

Have you considered Psychic Warrior 20, Knight 20, Crusader 20, Incarnate 20 or something similar? As everyone else has opined already, you've picked a very weak build. But you need not replace it with something complex if you want a strong build but aren't versed in the intricacies of optimization.

[Telonius]

Toughness? Really?

Prereq for Dwarven Defender.

Your DM is an evil #&*() if he doesn't allow Improved Toughness to serve as an alternate prereq.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Dwarven Defender? Really?

[sofawall]

Prereq for Dwarven Defender.

Your DM is an evil #&*() if he doesn't allow Improved Toughness to serve as an alternate prereq.

He is also not using the rules in the book.