[3.5] What is 1 LA?

[Drakevarg]

I already know that CR is incredibly wonky and a loose guideline at best, but what constitutes a single LA? When I'm building my custome leveled races I usually just evenly intersperce the stat boosts and whatnot, so it hasn't really been an issue yet considering that all the races have had preset LAs, but given that I'm planning to work on some custom races it's kind of important.

[sofawall]

I already know that CR is incredibly wonky and a loose guideline at best, but what constitutes a single LA? When I'm building my custome leveled races I usually just evenly intersperce the stat boosts and whatnot, so it hasn't really been an issue yet considering that all the races have had preset LAs, but given that I'm planning to work on some custom races it's kind of important.

If WotC knew that, we wouldn't have Lolth-Touched and White Dragonspawn.

[Temotei]

You'll have to eye it. Generally, you have to be careful with ability bonuses over +2, and penalties (other than Constitution) don't really balance against those bonuses.

A drow could maybe be LA +1.

Really, you have to eyeball it.

[Drakevarg]

*sighs*

Y'know, you'd think a mathematical determination as what constitutes as a level would be important, but noooo... lets just wing it!

I love DnD, I really do... but why is it so determinedly STUPID!?

Maybe I'll just do it in RHD, treat it like a proper class.

[Irreverent Fool]

Generally speaking, if the overall stat modifiers are positive and add up to +4 or less, that's worth +1 LA. This usually comes with a spell-like, minor resistance, and/or some miscellaneous skill bonuses. Bear in mind that INT and STR tend to be weighed a little more heavily. Look at what orcs must give up for their +4 STR.

Of course, unique special abilities are hard to judge and require careful consideration to balance with LA.

http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf

Type 'Level Adjustment +1' into the search field and take a look through the races with LA +1. This may help give you some idea.

Edit:

Y'know, you'd think a mathematical determination as what constitutes as a level would be important, but noooo... lets just wing it!

It's difficult to sum up the value of unique abilities.

obnoxious
sig

[Temotei]

*sighs*

Y'know, you'd think a mathematical determination as what constitutes as a level would be important, but noooo... lets just wing it!

I love DnD, I really do... but why is it so determinedly STUPID!?

Maybe I'll just do it in RHD, treat it like a proper class.

Because it's so customizable, everything has different applications. That makes it impossible to create a consistent calculation for LA.

[Irreverent Fool]

You'll have to eye it. Generally, you have to be careful with ability bonuses over +2, and penalties (other than Constitution) don't really balance against those bonuses.

A drow could maybe be LA +1.

Really, you have to eyeball it.

Drow could definitely be LA +1, though at lower level play they can be quite powerful. This is part of the problem. Many of the LA 'calculations' are based on abilities that do not scale or at least do not offer any substantial benefit at higher levels.

obnoxious
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[Optimystik]

Hobgoblins, lol.

(That is the extent of my contribution.)

[Drakevarg]

Alright, subquestion then: whats the difference (in terms of how much goodies I can stuff into each one) between a RHD and an LA? Or are LA mainly so you can create critters with shiny powers without them being too hard to stab?

[elonin]

Some ideas. I'd go for drow at +1 LA. And if they are a bit powerful for that then drop the SR as I've never heard of it mattering (really any EL appropriate caster will beat this). I'd personally prefer seeing LA races giving reduced hd, bab, and skills. Even if this increases the total LA. In LM there are undead classes and I can't remember how these were affected but they do add the above items.

[Temotei]

Alright, subquestion then: whats the difference (in terms of how much goodies I can stuff into each one) between a RHD and an LA? Or are LA mainly so you can create critters with shiny powers without them being too hard to stab?

RHD are a way to give something "mini class levels," essentially. The hit points, skill points, saves, BAB, feats, etc. All level-related things. They're better than LA, so be careful with that.

You can buy off LA.

[Starbuck_II]

I think LA should be not static.
It should be by archetype.

Like a Drow is +0 unless a spellcaster (this includes any caster class even 1/2 like Pally) than +1.

So for a melee dude like Barbarian/Fighter: they are LA +0 (nothing they have will be too much a benefit).

If a melee dude Drow later picks up a Spellcaster class than LA increases to reflect that.

But that would be a perfect world.

[Devils_Advocate]

Y'know, you'd think a mathematical determination as what constitutes as a level would be important, but noooo... lets just wing it!

Hey, feel free to come up with the perfect formula that lets you precisely quantify exactly how useful something is, if you think it's so easy.

Not that the difficulty of assessing usefulness fully accounts for the disparity between equal-cost options in D&D 3.5. As you may have noticed, they pretty much didn't really care all that much about game balance. The classes and feats plainly aren't all balanced against each other, and they were designed to be used by players. Letting players play monsters was an afterthought.

Alright, subquestion then: whats the difference (in terms of how much goodies I can stuff into each one) between a RHD and an LA? Or are LA mainly so you can create critters with shiny powers without them being too hard to stab?

Adding hit dice to a race, all else held equal, lowers its LA. (Except maybe not for extra pimp HD like Dragon or Outsider, which are as good as levels in some classes.) Level Adjustments are, theoretically, for creatures more powerful than characters of their hit dice.

Several aspects of the game would function more smoothly if everything were designed to have CR = HD = ECL. Deviating from that isn't even just problematic for monster characters. There are, gods help us, spells that let you transform into or control creatures below some number of hit dice.

Building each of your custom races like a LA +0 race and X-level class, where X is the number of racial hit dice, would probably be a good idea. That would help to keep them in line with the 0 HD, LA +0 humanoids that serve as the power baseline.

[Frosty]

A good thing to do is to compare the race to Humans and Dwarves. If the race is more powerful than those two races, it's for certain a LA +1.

[Starbuck_II]

A good thing to do is to compare the race to Humans and Dwarves. If the race is more powerful than those two races, it's for certain a LA +1.

But by those standards Hobgoblins are LA +0.

[Frosty]

But by those standards Hobgoblins are LA +0.

And they probably should be.

[Thurbane]

A while ago (maybe 2-3 years) someone made a fairly detailed, and quite handy "point buy system" for building custom races over at the official Wizards D&D forums. Various features (size, darkvision etc.), ability mods and such were added up to determine probable LA. I can't remeber his name, and with the upheaval of the WotC forums recently, I'm not sure if I can find a link...

...here we go: YabaTheWhat's feature point system

[Ernir]

Also, Soldarin's ECL calculator.

[Thurbane]

...yes, that too. It's in my sig, you'd think I would have remembered.

[Irreverent Fool]

Alright, subquestion then: whats the difference (in terms of how much goodies I can stuff into each one) between a RHD and an LA? Or are LA mainly so you can create critters with shiny powers without them being too hard to stab?

Unless you're creating a whole new creature type (humanoid, ooze, construct, animal, outisder) you don't get to stuff goodies into RHD. Racial hit dice are, as I think was mentioned above, like mini-class levels.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm

As an example, an 8HD animal will have:
8d8 (plus 8xcon modifier, of course) hp
+6 Base Attack Bonus
Fortitude +6, Reflex +6, Will +2
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier) x 11
And +2 bonus points to apply to ability scores

This is in addition to any unique abilities the creature will have like a wolf's ability to trip.

LA is mainly for balancing monster powers with PCs. This is why you will notice that many creatures have disparate values for CR and LA.

obnoxious
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[paladinthief]

LA 1 is wizards' way of inflicting it's own randomness on our world.

[Frosty]

For most high LA/high RHD creatures, you can safely drop a lot of those and they'd still be balanced. For example, the standard Erinyes is an ECL 16 creature. How the heck would one be effective as a standard adventurer within a level 16 party?

[Runestar]

A good thing to do is to compare the race to Humans and Dwarves. If the race is more powerful than those two races, it's for certain a LA +1.

Yet possibly not strong enough to merit LA+1. The various planetouched seem to fall into this dilemma.

I think what we can do is find good examples of races worth their LA. For example, I feel goliath could be the gold standard by which other LA+1 races should be gauged. Maybe half-ogre for LA+2 and a slightly revised half-dragon (cleaned up with savage progression allowed) for +3?

Don't bother about balancing them with casters in mind. Those have to offer heck of a bonus to compensate slower spell progression.

[sonofzeal]

My personal rule for LA +1.....

Ability score bonuses should total either +4 or +6. Any less is insulting, and any more is probably going to be unfair. If you're going with the +6, there should be some sort of split between physical and mental (like the Catfolk's +4 Dex / +2 Cha). Either way, no more than +4 to a single stat.

Aside from the ability scores, the rest should be roughly on par with three to five normal feats. An "open" feat that they can actually choose, or something particularly synergistic, is worth double. You could have a good bonus to four skills and a small natural armor boost, or a medium natural armor boost and lowlight vision and "Hold Breath", or a free bonus feat and a decent swim speed.

[Frosty]

Yet possibly not strong enough to merit LA+1. The various planetouched seem to fall into this dilemma.

I think what we can do is find good examples of races worth their LA. For example, I feel goliath could be the gold standard by which other LA+1 races should be gauged. Maybe half-ogre for LA+2 and a slightly revised half-dragon (cleaned up with savage progression allowed) for +3?

Don't bother about balancing them with casters in mind. Those have to offer heck of a bonus to compensate slower spell progression.

I'd take a human over the planetouched for most builds tbh.

[Irreverent Fool]

I'd take a human over the planetouched for most builds tbh.

With or without the LA?

obnoxious
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[Runestar]

Exactly. Tieflings would make ideal rogues at LA+0, while the aasimar would go some way towards alleviating the paladin's MAD. Outsider traits is nice as well, not least because it gives a tiefling rogue free martial weapon proficiency (as well as autoqualifying a spellcaster for abjurant champion).

[Sliver]

Exactly. Tieflings would make ideal rogues at LA+0, while the aasimar would go some way towards alleviating the paladin's MAD. Outsider traits is nice as well, not least because it gives a tiefling rogue free martial weapon proficiency (as well as autoqualifying a spellcaster for abjurant champion).

I prefer to give up being outsider to lower the LA.. But I have read you can take a feat that will make you an outsider so you could just be a lesser one, pay a feat and be exactly like the regular version, minus the LA and first level feat..

Otherworldly! The discussion.

[AstralFire]

With or without the LA?

obnoxious
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Without.

The original design philosophy behind LA almost seemed to be, "if you would ever take this over one of the core races for one of the core classes, give it a level adjustment" when it should really be, "if you would always take this over one of the core races, give it a level adjustment."

Relative to Humans, Aasimar make superior paladins and equal clerics, sorcerers, druids and bards with no LA assuming moderate-low optimization and 28 PB. As point buy, high rolls or optimization increases, Aasimar lowers in favor.

[Optimystik]

This is what I love most about 4e - Humans are still good at every class, but are no longer the kneejerk choice for every single one.

Also, LA-less Aasimar (Devas), Tieflings, Drow and Genasi, ftw.