[3.5; Class] The Cerebral Stalker

[Fail]

Thanks, I think I will take out UMD, it's not that important to the class and it would give rogues a leg up. Also, mind strike actually does work against enemies immune to precision damage as long as they fail a will save.

Damn, forgot to correct the post. But there's still immunity to mind-affecting. And besides, it's good that they get another set of combat options - UMD took out a lot.

[ErrantX]

Yeah, but Use Psionic Device might not be a bad replacement; after all, less items usually are psionic in nature, but being a psionic character and all, it makes sense that these guys might have it.

Also, what's so wrong about hitting a solid Tier 3 ?

-X

[Fail]

Yeah, but Use Psionic Device might not be a bad replacement; after all, less items usually are psionic in nature, but being a psionic character and all, it makes sense that these guys might have it.

UPD fails to differ from UMD in being a huge list of traps, and still potentially overpowering any rogue that doesn't go straight for broken spells (which is crap for multiple reasons). Also, putting actual class features makes it more distinct from other classes.

Also, what's so wrong about hitting a solid Tier 3 ?

Please use terminology that starts to make sense. The original complaint (that I agree with) was that it was blatantly better than the rogue at its own niche, with the latter being a rather fine class. Taking UMD out and replacing it with class features is a better way to be more distinctive and doesn't risk either overpoweredness or the opposite.

[ErrantX]

UPD fails to differ from UMD in being a huge list of traps, and still potentially overpowering any rogue that doesn't go straight for broken spells (which is crap for multiple reasons). Also, putting actual class features makes it more distinct from other classes.

Please use terminology that starts to make sense. The original complaint (that I agree with) was that it was blatantly better than the rogue at its own niche, with the latter being a rather fine class. Taking UMD out and replacing it with class features is a better way to be more distinctive and doesn't risk either overpoweredness or the opposite.

Fail. Fitting. Please familiarize yourself with the Tier system. It's something that does get bandied around here quite frequently, more regularly on the RPG board but here as well by likes of CharOps.

Rogues fail at their job because there are classes that do it better. Factotum, for example, does the rogue's job and does it far better. In this case, the Cerebral Stalker does the rogue's job better as well. Is this a fault of the Cerebral Stalker or the Factotum? No, it's a fault of the rogue. And that's why it's a lower Tier class. Taking things away from a class that fits for the class's designed role is just plain silly, especially when you use a class that is blatantly worse than it as a reason.

-X

[Fail]

Fail. Fitting. Please familiarize yourself with the Tier system. It's something that does get bandied around here quite frequently, more regularly on the RPG board but here as well by likes of CharOps.

I know it. Better than you do. Because I can see it's retarded.

Rogues fail at their job because there are classes that do it better. Factotum, for example, does the rogue's job and does it far better. In this case, the Cerebral Stalker does the rogue's job better as well. Is this a fault of the Cerebral Stalker or the Factotum? No, it's a fault of the rogue. And that's why it's a lower Tier class. Taking things away from a class that fits for the class's designed role is just plain silly, especially when you use a class that is blatantly worse than it as a reason.

JaronK's argument's that factotums are awesome because polymorph. Seriously. Go listen to some better counsel. Also: the game doesn't need anyone to have staffs/dorjes of pretty much every broken spell/power and deal 100d6 damage (conservatively)/round (for the record, that's a rogue - so much for "failing at their job"). Or, alternatively, be useless. That's life with UMD, and JaronK's seems to not notice.

[arguskos]

Gentlemen, several things.

1. There's already a thread about the Tiers going on right here, over in Roleplaying games. Take it there, please, not in Vaynor's class PEACH thread.

2. JaronK is a poster here, it's probably best to not directly insult him in a medium such as this, and it IS a punishable offense on these boards. Let's not see anyone get smacked for something like that.

3. So, yes, removing UMD is a good idea. Replacing it with UPD is also a good idea, helps with class be more distinctive, which is a good thing.

[Doc Roc]

At Arg's request, this post has been reduced to its core element:
Frowny Face.

[Fail]

As for 1 & 2: I'll be happier to see this retardation going out than you, trust me. Anyone actually interested in discussing the comparison of the two classes, please do so.

3. So, yes, removing UMD is a good idea. Replacing it with UPD is also a good idea, helps with class be more distinctive, which is a good thing.

No, it makes the class less distinctive than writing a couple extra class features.

Me, "goading X": you sure you read that correctly?

Also, rogues are awesome with little work. This class doesn't need to be better with any amount of work. And doesn't need to touch the point where either rogues or factotums are broken, or the point where either is useless. That's called "give the class the features that do what it needs, period", instead of hiding behind horrendous skill/item design and hoping it works.

[Doc Roc]

Write the class features then, plox?

[Vaynor]

Write the class features then, plox?

This. I can't really think of any more class features that would fit the class. Fail, if you have some more brilliant ideas, please, share.

Also, rogues are awesome with little work. This class doesn't need to be better with any amount of work. And doesn't need to touch the point where either rogues or factotums are broken, or the point where either is useless. That's called "give the class the features that do what it needs, period", instead of hiding behind horrendous skill/item design and hoping it works.

If you'd like to give some constructive criticism rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks, please do. Otherwise, well, don't.

I'd prefer not to get my thread locked because of a pretty ridiculous argument that has little to do with my class.

[arguskos]

No, it makes the class less distinctive than writing a couple extra class features.

Tell me how many non-manifesting classes have Use Psionic Device on their class lists. I can think of only two.

Giving a psionic-flavored class Use Psionic Device seems to be a thematic idea that really isn't a nerf. Seems fair enough to me. It's not like UPD is BAD.

Also, totally off-topic, but Fail, every time I see your username in a sentence, I just giggle uncontrollably. That was probably the idea, and it's working.

Extraspecial also, Doc, your response after mine is awesome.

[Lix Lorn]

This is a really cool class! It's what I hoped for when i looked up the Psychic Assassin. (Adds to list of classes for my super-strong avatar)

[Forever Curious]

If only this class was around a few days ago i could have used it for a character...

I agree it's very Prc material, but I overall really like it. Definitely a solid, not game breaking class. Possibly can be used for INT-based cheese, but I doubt it. Nice work.

[Vaynor]

This is a really cool class! It's what I hoped for when i looked up the Psychic Assassin. (Adds to list of classes for my super-strong avatar)

If only this class was around a few days ago i could have used it for a character...

I agree it's very Prc material, but I overall really like it. Definitely a solid, not game breaking class. Possibly can be used for INT-based cheese, but I doubt it. Nice work.

Thanks.

Also, with the amount of things in D&D that can be used for cheese, I'm not too worried about it.

[Realms of Chaos]

Ah, I think that I've finally put my finger on it. I can now finally express what it is about this type of class that makes me frown a bit.

Just as there are many tiers of class out there, there are many levels of optimization out there. A good chunk of players out there (let's call them "casual players") have never heard of the tier system, aren't masters of optimization, and have never heard the terms "practical optimization". When these "casual players" get together and play, it can take a very long time for anybody to realize that there just might be gap in strength between the party monk and wizard. Everybody playing at that level is more or less at the same level of power, regardless of what they're playing.

This class has made an interesting trade-off with the rogue, exchanging use magic device with the often less-useful use psionic device skill. From an optimizer's perspective, this is a huge blow to the class as it puts a few glass ceilings on what this guy can accomplish and keeps the rogue at least somewhat viable in certain ways. To help cmpensate for this loss, the class has far more class features than the rogue and a strictly better version of sneak attack. From an optimizer's perspective, this is a-okay.

However, from the perspective of "casual players", the people who don't ever invest in UMD anyways, this class is just a blatant increase in power over the rogue in pretty much every measurable way, messing with the power curve in those games.

As such, even though this class is indeed balanced in the great scheme of things, it only ends up feeling balanced in a moderately optimized and high-powered campaign.

The Tome of Battle kind of did this as well but I'm not a fan of these power classes in my games. This base class is still absolutely brilliant in every way (I even have it bookmarked) but I'd hesitate to allow it in my campaigns.

That said, one thing that I'd change, personally, is to change the mind strike back to every three level while introducing the following feat.

Improved Mind Strike
Your mind strike slashes at the minds of enemies even further.
Prerequisites: Mind Strike +1d6
Benefit: Whenever a creature takes damage from your mind strike class feature, if must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Int modifier) or take an additional 1d8 points of damage.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times and its effects stack. A single saving throw is made against all extra damage dealt in this way.

In this way, the cerebral stalker can become better than what you have currently written with the expenditure of actual resources but comes out of the box at a more reasonable level of power, meaning that sub-par optimization lets it function in the games of "Casual Players".

[Vaynor]

I'm personally comfortable with the class as is, and I really like the way it progresses so I don't think I'll be changing it at the moment. However, your idea is a good one and I think I'll add a note to the bottom of the class for use in low-powered campaigns. That way a DM can still use this class in a low-tier game if they wish to do so. Mostly because I definitely agree with you, this class belongs in an upper-tier game and would be overpowered otherwise.