(4e)Can somebody update me on Skill Challenges?

[Ozreth]

So I want to throw some skill challenges into my game. People are saying that they have been updated since the PHB, well thats good, but even the rules there were sketchy to me.

Can somebody give me a solid rundown of skill challenges with the updated rules and throw me some good/fun examples.

Thanks!

[Kurald Galain]

The main changes are (1) lowering the DCs in general, because skill challenges as printed are mathematically highly likely to result in failure, and (2) removing the penalty for trying an original idea.

Recommended reading is this arcticle and this one by the alexandrian. His premise is that skill challenges don't work; however, even if you don't agree with that premise, the articles can give you good pointers on what to avoid when running an SC.

[Ozreth]

The main changes are (1) lowering the DCs in general, because skill challenges as printed are mathematically highly likely to result in failure, and (2) removing the penalty for trying an original idea.

Recommended reading is this arcticle and this one by the alexandrian. His premise is that skill challenges don't work; however, even if you don't agree with that premise, the articles can give you good pointers on what to avoid when running an SC.

That article is just a biased rant against skill challenges.

[Kurald Galain]

That article is just a biased rant against skill challenges.

No, it's a biased analysis against skill challenges.

Like I said, even if you don't agree with him, he still points out things to avoid. For instance, he correctly points out that penalizing players for trying something original in an SC is not fun; and a month later, WOTC realized that he was right and wrote errata for that particular rule.

[Ozreth]

Ohh that errata is probably what I need. Where can I find it? And I will re-read the article tomorrow. It is 2:30 am and I am lying it bed half asleep, so I probably didn't get what I should have out of it.

[potatocubed]

To be honest, skill challenges as written are still rubbish, and I like 4e on the whole. I just use the 3.5 system of 'test skill where necessary'.

Anyway, since this is approximately relevant to this discussion, here's a sort of 'hacked skill challenge' idea that attempts to retain the principle and most of the functionality:

(I haven't tested it, or even thought about it much - this is off the top of my head, right now.)

If you get the errataed skill challenge DCs and '3 failures is always too many failures' rules, they should be okay. You need to roll x successes before 3 failures.

Principle: Failing a skill challenge should not bring the game to a grinding halt.
Principle: You shouldn't get more bennies for failing a skill challenge than succeeding.

So, you need to set up a skill challenge so that there are definite results for success and failure, and failure isn't absolute failure unless the characters can live without success.

Example: If the skill challenge is a complex lock on a treasure vault door, then failure can mean absolute failure because the characters don't require that treasure to continue. If the Plot McGuffin is in that vault, then failure has to somehow still involve getting the McGuffin.

Taking a note from Burning Wheel then, I suggest setting up skill challenges not as 'you succeed, or you fail' but rather as 'you succeed, or you succeed and some bad things happen'.

This, then, allows you to tailor the degree of bad things to the number of failed die rolls in the skill challenge. You get into the vault, or you get into the vault but a silent alarm sounds in the guard room, or you get into the vault and a silent alarm sounds and a monster is summoned and a cloud of poison gas is released, etc.

Of course, you cannot gain more XP from the hazards than from the skill challenge itself.

This does not solve the problems of a) a single good idea that bypasses the entire challenge or b) the highest skill mod character spamming the same skill over and over.

So that's my 10 minute skill challenge revamp. It's not perfect, but I think it's a start.

[DabblerWizard]

The main changes are (1) lowering the DCs in general, because skill challenges as printed are mathematically highly likely to result in failure...

I remember looking at the text for skill challenges, and thinking that they seemed rather difficult to pass. I'm glad that some work has been done to revamp them. The mechanic has nice potential, in that it seems to allow a dynamic method for using a group of skills together to solve a challenging non-combat scenario.

[tbarrie]

This does not solve the problems of a) a single good idea that bypasses the entire challenge or b) the highest skill mod character spamming the same skill over and over.

So that's my 10 minute skill challenge revamp. It's not perfect, but I think it's a start.

Isn't calling it a "revamp" a bit strong? You haven't suggested any changes to the skill challenge rules, merely advice on how to use them. (And I believe WotC has been giving very similar advice for some time now, in the DMG2 and in their on-line magazines.)

Regarding the two problems you mention, I don't see how a) is a problem at all. It's no different from a character circumventing or defeating a combat encounter through a single clever move that you hadn't thought of. Just give your players their XP and try a little harder to outthink them next time.:)

For b), just put an upper limit on the number of times you can benefit from skill X. (As I believe some of the original examples in the DMG do.) If this feels too artificial because doing the same thing over and over again logically should deal with the challenge you've set, maybe the challenge is a bit boring; try to come up with a complication.

[Bagelz]

I'm not a huge fan of skill challenges as written, its still "roll x dice and count the successes" instead of roll a die and see if its a success.

Here's an example of how I run complex skill checks:
someone wants to track a hobgoblin that's been causing trouble in the area.
I'll have all the players roll a perception check to look for tracks.
if successful:
I'll have PlayerA roll a nature or dungeoneering check to see if the tracks that were found belong to a hobgoblin. And a second check to see how far they can follow those tracks before they lose the trail. (maybe 1 mile for each point over 10 at level 1) before another check is required.

if no tracks were found, or if they lost the trail, i'll allow another search in 4 hours (with -2s because it's harder at night).

this means the outcome of skill checks affect what the characters do, its not just a success or failure.


second example: players need to convince an overconfident nobleman to prepare for an attack from the neighboring barbarians. Most people think the town's defenses are impenetrable (only because there have been no attacks in their lifetime).

start of the skill challenge, streetwise or insight checks to gather info about how to get audience with the nobleman
diplomacy or stealth against the city hall guards (failure means you have to wait till changing of the guards to try on a new one)
diplomacy streewise or intimidate to sweettalk, blackmail, or threaten lower diplomats, or the nobleman's seneschal
diplomacy, or history (give an example of previous attacks) to convince the nobleman to take action.

I might even allow an intimidate check on the nobleman, because if he's scared of you, and your scared of the barbarians, then he should be scared of the barbians.

Always always allow a player to use a different skill if he/she can give a good reason to (examples the intimidate above, or say a player fails his nature check identify tracks and says "i dunno it must be a unicorn", i'll allow an arcana check to say no, its definitely not a unicorn)

[Oracle_Hunter]

Errata is here

Here's my advice
(1) Skill Challenges are not necessarily "challenges."
Well-trained characters should auto-succeed in certain types of challenges. Let them - it gives them the chance to show off to the world. Just don't do those sorts of challenges all the time - if you have a Diplomancer Bard, have a situation where he can throw is Diplomacy around, but then have a few where Insight might be needed to figure out exactly what the fellow wants.

(2) Provide the players with options for checks
Don't do the route of "Make 6 Diplomacy checks before 3 failure" challenges; whenever possible leave the course of action for a given PC relatively open.

(3) Force PCs to use skills they're bad at
A good way to mix things up. In one particular challenge I ran recently, the PCs were crossing a deadly dangerous mountain range. For every check I had each PC roll a d20; the lowest roll would then roll a d% which would place him in a particular hazardous situation for him to get out of - things like rock slides, unstable footing, dangerous snakes, an overflight of something nasty. It just so happened that our Diplomancer Bard caught the majority of these hazards - and he has no physical skills at all! He said it was the most fun he'd had in a challenge.

(4) Mix it up
An upcoming challenge of mine will require each PC to perform a mini-challenge (4/3) to overcome a particular obstacle (unless they can figure a way around it.) But, in the end, the group will have to make a difficult 6/3 challenge or get booted out of the treasure room. So, each PC will have to do something they're not good at, but the PCs trained in the final challenge will get to shine while the pressure is really on.

[Telok]

Big and important tip here: Tailor the skill challenge to the party.

This is WOTCs biggest goof when it comes to these. Most of the published challenges fall into easy categories like social, physical, ormagic. If nobody in the group is a class with Charisma as a primary of secondary stat then you probably don't want social skill challenges, at least not at "level appropriate" DCs.

If you don't tell people that they're in a skill challenge then you probably will end up with everyone sitting back and letting the highest skill character hammer at it, you let the thief disarm all the traps because he's the one with any real chance to do it. Likewise, if you tell people that it's a skill challenge you will need to be prepared for them to try inappropriate skills. This is because the fighter may only have Athletics, Endurance, and Heal as trained skills but doesn't want to be totally left out.

[potatocubed]

Isn't calling it a "revamp" a bit strong? You haven't suggested any changes to the skill challenge rules, merely advice on how to use them. (And I believe WotC has been giving very similar advice for some time now, in the DMG2 and in their on-line magazines.)

Fair enough. I was writing it at work literally as I thought of the ideas, so my wording is probably all over the place.

For example, when I talk about 'problems' I mean 'with the skill challenge mechanics'. They're not exactly difficult issues to fix in-game - I just chuck the challenge mechanics out entirely and that works well enough for me.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Big and important tip here: Tailor the skill challenge to the party.

I'd have said that goes without saying - though not in the way you propose.

First of all - unless you really want them to stay within the Skill Challenge box, don't ever tell them it's a Skill Challenge. They'll figure it out soon enough if they're paying attention.

Secondly - the way you stop one guy from taking all the glory is by either forcing (through circumstances) the other party members to participate, or to subdivide the challenge into multiple chunks (e.g. 6/3 = 3-3/3) with a different emphasis on each bit.

[valadil]

I haven't actually written a skill challenge yet so I can only comment on the ones I've played. The best SCs are the ones where you can't tell an SC is happening. While physical skill challenges are the easiest to write, social ones are the easiest to run transparently.

The best SC I ever played was in an LFR mod whose name I've forgotten. We had to repair a guy's boat in order to get him to take us to an island. The actual repairs were done with athletics, but what was interesting was acquiring the materials. I think we needed tools, wood, and nails. The SC amounted to a series of gather info, bluff, and intimidate checks (we weren't the diplomatic types), but none of that was set in stone. We told them GM how we wanted to solve a problem and used the skills we though were suitable. For the most part we just talked to NPCs and he'd ask for a check to see how well we were doing. It was more roleplay than mechanics and it worked fine.

I think the problem with skill challenges is that they're not fully explained. The description in the DMG makes them sound like an obstacle course that you run your players through. That works, but it's not especially representative of how social challenges actually work.

[Gamerlord]

I prefer the old DCs for skill challenges myself, the new ones are way too easy.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I prefer the old DCs for skill challenges myself, the new ones are way too easy.

See, I felt the same way until I learned Lesson #1

The new DCs are designed for an Unskilled practitioner - a Moderate DC is passable on a good roll, and a Hard one is tough unless you have good natural bonuses. Skilled people should be rewarded for their trouble; unskilled folks should sweat, but not just give up.

As an added bonus, the new DCs mean a player might be willing to take a swing at a challenge they otherwise wouldn't try. Instead of "I'll whisper my Brilliant Idea to the Diplomancer and let him roll" they may just say it.