OOTS #701 - The Discussion Thread

[Enlong]

"It'll all be worth it. You'll see."

Amazing how those seven words sum up Redcloak so well.

[Kome]

Overall, they are no better than the other races themselves, so are they really Evil?

Yes. Yes, they are. For two reasons. The first is the cliche "two wrongs don't make a right" variety. Just because evil was committed against you does not excuse your own acts of evil.

The second reason they're evil is by their actions. Redcloak specificially chose Azure City to invade, to get personal revenge, when capturing ANY gate would work towards The Dark One's goal. He delighted at the thought of getting back at "them." The hobgoblins enslaved Azure City, and are amused at torturing their slaves. The Sapphire Guard has, to date, shown none of that. No slavery, no perverse personal joy in breaking down their enemy's morale or spirit. The Sapphire Guard is better than the goblins, even if the entire human race is not.

I'd even go so far as to say Redcloak is worse than Xykon (not more Evil, but just worse). At least Xykon has the spine to admit he's a complete monster. He's honest, he's straightforward, and he seems to understand himself. It's actually kind of refreshing to see that in a villain and I appreciate how Rich has fleshed out Xykon's character (and yes, both puns were intentional). Redcloak... he's a coward who refuses to see just what he has become. He has to constantly console himself that "It'll all be worth it."

Spoiler

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Right-Eye had the correct idea in SoD. Stop seeing life as a competition - who has what, who has more, who hates whom - and strive to personally make the best with what you've got. Redcloak seems more content to simply take what others have than to actually earn anything.

What Rich has done with Redcloak is simply amazing. I've yet to feel such animosity towards a comic villain.

[hamishspence]

Redcloak specificially chose Azure City to invade, to get personal revenge, when capturing ANY gate would work towards The Dark One's goal. He delighted at the thought of getting back at "them."

And, ensuring the Sapphire Guard never slaughters any more goblin families.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html

"At least no more young goblins will have to watch their families getting slaughtered by blue-clad humans."

[Fitzclowningham]

If they'd found the phylactery Redcloak would already be gone--Xykon said they'd be teleporting out 2 rounds after it was found! I can't imagine him wanting to give Redcloak the time for a rousing leaving speech before they go.

Thing is, I remember it as "everybody drop everything and search for the phylactery NOW." But you're right about the teleporting two rounds after it's found thing.

Now, how to square the circle...? There's no way in hell Xykon would allow thousands of goblinoids, to say nothing of Redcloak, to stand around doing nothing if the location of the phylactery was still unknown, and there's no way that Xykon would not have teleported at the very least himself, Redcloak, Tsukiko, MitD, and Jirix out of there no later than two rounds after they had possession of it.

All of which, imo, leaves two possibilities: 1) They found the phylactery somewhere from which Xykon is the only one who can retrieve it, and he is away doing so; or 2) phylactery found or not, Xykon's body has been destroyed, and he isn't teleporting anyone anywhere for the moment. I'm pretty sure under #2 that the phylactery has at least been located, otherwise everyone would still be looking for it.

[Kome]

And, ensuring the Sapphire Guard never slaughters any more goblin families.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html

"At least no more young goblins will have to watch their families getting slaughtered by blue-clad humans."

The only families we've ever seen getting slaughtered by the Sapphire Guard were the ones in a village that was more or less dedicated to The Dark One's plan of capturing a rift and manipulating the Snarl.

It does not at all excuse the summary execution of non-combatants on the part of the Sapphire Guard. Of course, maybe Redcloak would appreciate the irony if any Paladin decided to defend their actions by saying it was for the greater good (after all, those goblin children might grow up to resent the Sapphire Guard so much that they try to restart that cult of The Dark One and pose a threat to reality). Then again, since he's a short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrite... maybe not.

[SaintRidley]

This off-coloured goblin eludes me. I can't see any difference in any of the goblins.

[hamishspence]

Five goblins in the middle of the picture- the one of those five on the lower right, looks a little paler.

[Allan Surgite]

It's a greenish-yellow, by the way. Just look for all of the greener goblins and you'll find him.

Better hint: from the lowest-right section of the banister, look three goblins into the crowd.

[Enlong]

Also: the Roaches' line.

As a veteran of many battles in Guild Wars, I agree: everyone likes a good pull. A bad pull means everyone dies.

[AyuVince]

Also: the Roaches' line.

As a veteran of many battles in Guild Wars, I agree: everyone likes a good pull. A bad pull means everyone dies.

And World of Warcraft, and pretty much every single MMO where aggro matters.

My fellow goblinkind, the state of our union is strong.

[fractal]

It's also worth noting that thirty thousand hobgoblin combatants were living just fine, unmolested by humans (and who is going to bother a group that strong?), until Redcloak showed up and took them off to battle. They completely started this war, they shouldn't be too surprised if it goes poorly.

[SoC175]

Wild theory 1: SoD-Spoiler

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Redcloak announces that Xykon is now a foe to be driven off, thus activating the compulsion Xykon cast on the MitD to eat Redcloak should he ever betray him

About elves and goblins: I would say that it's not that certain that the elves would be actually capable of conquering AC from the goblins. During the attack on Lirian's gate Redcloak alreaady brought a goblin army against the elfen homelands and they're were not doing bad. The elven defenders were just as low-level soldiers than the goblins or the AC-soldiers. So it would at least be an even match.

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The goblin army was attacking the elven homelands for 11 days and pushing deeper into their territory with each day until caught by the guardian virus. One of the dying elven soldiers regretted only having 9hp to give for his country, thus the rank and file of the elven army is not tougher than the goblin or human troops. Team Peregrine is a commando units, but as the goblin ninjas proofed, the elves aren't the only one with such elite units

[Vectner]

I like a good pulled pork, mmm

[SaintRidley]

It's a greenish-yellow, by the way. Just look for all of the greener goblins and you'll find him.

Better hint: from the lowest-right section of the banister, look three goblins into the crowd.

I'm just going to trust you guys.


Colour-blindness has its disadvantages.

[Pokonic]

Hm, i wonder why the yellowish goblin is there? Forshadowing, maybe?

[Teddy]

Hm, i wonder why the yellowish goblin is there? Forshadowing, maybe?

Well, as I said back at page 2, it's probably a hobbo-gobbo half-breed. It's pretty much what you would expect when the two kinds of goblinoids live together as equals.

[SatyreIkon]

El Presidente speaks! A good propaganda show. Makes me wonder what bad news he has to offer his "people"...

[Teddy]

El Presidente speaks! A good propaganda show. Makes me wonder what bad news he has to offer his "people"...

I'm immediately (for the second time today) reminded of the board game "Junta", but Redcloak doesn't really strike me as that "El Presidente".

[Asis]

Wild theory 1: SoD-Spoiler

Spoiler

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Redcloak announces that Xykon is now a foe to be driven off, thus activating the compulsion Xykon cast on the MitD to eat Redcloak should he ever betray him

I really don't think that this is possible for many reasons. Shortest one is: fly+meteor swarm. Even when there are more than twenty thousand gobbos in the area, they'd still get all killed by Xykon.

I'd even go so far as to say Redcloak is worse than Xykon (not more Evil, but just worse). At least Xykon has the spine to admit he's a complete monster. He's honest, he's straightforward, and he seems to understand himself. Redcloak... he's a coward who refuses to see just what he has become. He has to constantly console himself that "It'll all be worth it."

I agree with you but, after reading Xykon's SoD speech, I have to say that pity also enters in my feelings towards RC. All in all, he's a scared boy who was forced to burn stages and the Lich takes full advantage of that.
As for Xykon... I'll put it in David Lawrence's words:

“This is the very worst wickedness, that we refuse to acknowledge the passionate evil that is in us. This makes us secret and rotten.”

[factotum]

It's also worth noting that thirty thousand hobgoblin combatants were living just fine, unmolested by humans (and who is going to bother a group that strong?), until Redcloak showed up and took them off to battle.

I think that's an extremely good point. The hobgoblins had their own city up in the mountains, and while they probably weren't exactly wealthy, they must have been doing OK to be able to support all those people! What has moving to Azure City gained them? Ten thousand hobgoblin dead, the remnants of a ruined city, and a few human slaves. Azure City's main advantage--e.g. being a major trade hub--is presumably shot to heck now it's occupied by the hobboes, and their own attack showed the city is not all that defensible.

On the whole, I think that group of hobgoblins would have been better off if Redcloak and Xykon had never turned up on their doorstep.

[Aaron]

And now team evil begins its march on Girard's Gate. Our heros are running out of time.

Gate? What Gate?

Also, this comic was posted the night before Barack Obama's State of the Union Address.


Coincidence?

Yes, actually.

Yet another real-world reference by Mr. Burlew. Nice one.

[KIDS]

Does the background in the last panel look like a New York skyline for some reference? I can't see those things in the distance as anything other than rows of skyscrapers, as they're a bit too even to be just walls.

[MReav]

I swear, every time I see the MitD handle something, I am convinced it is using some kind of telekinesis.

[Crystalline]

Viva la revolution!

[Teddy]

Does the background in the last panel look like a New York skyline for some reference? I can't see those things in the distance as anything other than rows of skyscrapers, as they're a bit too even to be just walls.

It's a skyline, yes, but not an especially New York-y one. Far too flat for that.

[Elfin]

Redcloak talking to "Right-eye" in the mirror was a very nice touch.
Excellent comic.

[Teleporker]

So, does anyone have a theory why they needed Monster-san to pull the curtain?
I guess it's because of the magical shadow around him - maybe there wasn't enough space on the balcony so that the guy who opens the curtain would be seen from the crowd. This way, they only see a (dramatic) shadow behind Redcloak.

What Monster-san says about pushing and pulling is a very general statement, by the way. I don't think it says anything about him.

The umbrella does project magical darkness, so I think it is simply too dark in the back of the stage. No magic. Just like when MitD was originally hiding in Durokan's dungeon.

As for why they need him to pull a plain old curtain, I just can't think of any logical reason. As for longshot ones:

1. The hobbos are too lazy or find themselves too important to pull curtains.
2. They want MitD to be "visible" from the back for twelve-gods-know-what-reason.

***

On a separate comment:

1. Too many hobbos not looking for the phylactery, so either the anouncement is way more important (as in Xykon ordered it), or the phylactery has been found.

2. Redcloack is not wearing the phylactery, which I would justify as Xykon not trusting him with it anymore.

So, either he has it himself, or maybe he gave it to Tsukiko (then again, I don't think he'd trust her that much).

[multilis]

...Personally, rather than throwing fireballs at them, I'd prefer to find a way to help emancipate the Goblins and end the war as peacefully as possible

The world was built on lvling and XP and slaughter. But the love of Snarl can cure this, a better world awaits beyond the rifts. Join us, bring your families and climb through the rifts. And help us open up the holes that block Snarl's love from cleaning out the old ways of hate and division to usher in the new of hope, love and brotherhood.

- Holey Brotherhood

[Kish]

1. The hobbos are too lazy or find themselves too important to pull curtains.
2. They want MitD to be "visible" from the back for twelve-gods-know-what-reason.

3. The epic-level monster who travels with their Supreme Leader is important enough to have a role in ceremonies, even if he has no idea how powerful he is himself.

1. Too many hobbos not looking for the phylactery,

There are thousands of hobgoblins! How many do you think can search the sewers at one time?

[derfenrirwolv]

Oh! OK, I should warn you that I'm much better at pushing than pulling"

He's the juggernaut ***** !