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Thread: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
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2010-01-27, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
So, I’m currently trying to design a very specific NPC. He’s a favored soul of Pelor, but he masquerades as a paladin. Mostly because he doesn’t want to try and explain that he’s a favored soul (people think he sounds a little crazy) and he knows clerics will know he’s not a cleric.
I’m really just designing him like a fairly typical melee buff-up-and-smash things FS at level 5 (which is where he will be when the PCs meet him). Is there anything I can do to make him seem more paladin-y mechanically (I have the roleplaying part down, I feel.)
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2010-01-27, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Have him have an advanced mount as a cohort?
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2010-01-27, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Give him a code of conduct that he follows to a T.
Holy symbols on sheild, neck, armor, and weapon if possible.
There is a ton of things.
But honestly doesn't just saying one of the lines below cover it?
"My divine abilities are a gift of (insert god here) does it truly matter what their exact origins are?" "I myself cannot explain it; suffice to say I am a champion of (insert god here)."
Why does a favored soul seem so crazy in the world you are playing in anyway? Is there some specific reason?Last edited by Ormagoden; 2010-01-27 at 10:42 AM.
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2010-01-27, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Classes are a metagame thing. Just have him act like your typical paladin and possibly have some sort of custom mount via animal cohort feat, if you think it's apropos.
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2010-01-27, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
If you want to emulate one mechanically remember to find a way for him to be able to do all the paladin's abilities with spells or other stuff.
Which would be Fear Immunity, Remove Disease, good saves, Smite Evil and a mount. The first two can be done with spells, the good saves are pretty much covered with a FS, Smite isn't that important and the mount can be a regular horse. No one needs to know it's nothing special.
Or give him a pegasus or something for a mount.
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2010-01-27, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
I know in one of the DnD novels (forget which one...) someone was mentioning that her family was from a long line of paladins and everyone was expecting her to start pulling off miracles an such. So at the least people have an idea that Paladins are born not made and what general abilities they have.
Although Favoured Soul has similiar fluff so its prolly no big deal.
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2010-01-27, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
If he's a NPC why does he need all this? Does the characters need/want to know any of this? If not then all you really have to do is have the PC say he is a paladin and wait for your players to realize he is casting more spells than a paladin normally would, which then they will either think you are making the paladin to powerful. Have the FS explain to them that he really ain't a paladin. You really don't have to change anything from the FS except maybe give him a regular mount.
I have to give Paizo credit...
They took an established work and said they fixed it but didn't actually fix it and yet still made money off from it.
How can you beat that?
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2010-01-27, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-27, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-27, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
A character's crunch, while it may be important to how the character perceives himself, matters very little in how other see him. For a sorcerer to disguise himself as a wizard only takes a spellbook and some roleplay(I.e., read the book every now and again). Similarly, if your FS says he's a paladin, he's a paladin as far as anyone else is concerned. In fact, there's no reason to think he's not a Sorcadin with arcane disciple(Pal 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist x for a L20 example). Also, in-game, you qualify as a paladin if (a) you have at least one level in it and (b) you haven't broken your vows. A Pal 1/FS 4 is as much a paladin as a Pal 5 is. And a Pal 1/FS 4 is pretty hard to tell apart from a FS 5.
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2010-01-27, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
"Paladin" is both a character class and an in-character term, which happens to line up pretty well with the class. "Wizard" is similar - there are in-character restrictions that mean someone might know what to expect of someone claiming to be a paladin or wizard. Generally this is not so much the case.
If a character wants to claim to be a paladin then people are going to have certain expectations - but those won't necessarily line up with the mechanical abilities granted by the paladin class; if he runs around being pretty while hitting evil in the face with a shiny weapon infused with deific power and saying things like "put down that baby and step away from the barbecue, fiend!" people are likely to take him at his word.
More than that, though, there's no reason to make the claim in the first place. The OP seems to think he's obliged to tell peasants "I am a favoured soul" and have them go all at him. No, he just says "I am a servant of <deity>" and if any clerics want to get snotty with him he can just convince the crowd that he won the ensuing theological debate anyway, since he has the charisma while they're stuck with the wisdom.
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2010-01-27, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Wait, people in your game world identify themselves as their class?
Bob: Hi, I'm Bob the Cleric of Pelor.
Joe: Hi Bob. I'm Joe the Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster/Necrocarnate.
Bob: Necrocarnate? So you're Evil?
Joe: Well, yes, but you have no way of knowing that. Or of differentiating my soulmelds from magic, unless you invested in Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana. Did you?
Bob: Nope. Well then, want to adventure together?
You can call yourself a Paladin, or a samurai, or a warrior, or a holy man, or anything you want. It shouldn't impact your crunch.Last edited by Person_Man; 2010-01-27 at 11:15 AM.
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2010-01-27, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Why is everybody hating this concept. Picture it like this.
The NPC walks into a town and finds it under attack by bandits, so he rushes into the fray and drives the bandits off with his very shiny sword and shinier spells, then turns to a wounded villager and heals him with a touch.
The villagers say "Thank you Cleric". The town cleric says "He's not a cleric".
Now, if he says "I am a favored soul of [Diety], he smiles upon me and grants me holy powers with which to battle evil", that may cause problems. Sure it's not issue in a setting where god's start favoring souls left and right, but if favored souls are very rare, some people may react badly to that, or ask alot of annoying questions, or whatever.
If he says "I am a paladin", then everybody says "Okay, thank you mister paladin".
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2010-01-27, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
I can see Joe saying "Im an incarnate." Then probably explaining what that is. Of course the Favoured soul can just say "I wield the might of X GOD to protect the innocent and punish the Guilty. I am a Holy Warrior of X GOD."
The only way someone can prove he is NOT a paladin is to hand him a holy avenger and see if it gets super powerful.
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2010-01-27, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Wha?
A: How is the town cleric to know anymore than anybody else in town?
B: How is it okay to be a paladin, and not okay to be a favored soul; both are considered to be "holy champions" of their church.
C: If a whole bunch of people he just saved are really that rude as to question his motives, why does anyone save them?Play a wizard. Be the Goddamn Batman.
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2010-01-27, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Both of those strike me as very odd things to happen. And I don't think following up with lying about being a paragon of righteousness and honour is in the long term a better solution than having to field some irritating questions from people going "oooh what's a favoured soul and is it shiny?".
(I find the idea that telling someone you're a cleric or paladin will be immediately accepted and understood, but telling them you're a champion of your deity provokes suspicion and hostility, more than a little strange.)
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2010-01-27, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
*obligatory 'make a Chameleon' comment*.
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2010-01-27, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Wow! Thank you for a number of condescending remarks. I apologize for not being a bit clearer with my post, so I think that’s my fault as well.
So let me go ahead and be a bit clearer.
The FS is an NPC. He “needs this” because I choose to give my NPCs enough of a backstory that if my players delve into it, I am ready to answer it.
Characters are not defined by their classes. However, Clerics and Paladins are obvious archetypes in the game system, to the point where they have their own benefits, paths, and arrangements. It is not far out of reach for me to assume that the average person is aware of what a cleric is and what a paladin is. And a cleric and a paladin would be aware of the differences between their respective “archetypes” and be fairly capable of recognizing each other for what they were, regardless of what terms they might actually use to refer to each other as.
So, hopefully, that’s cleared that out of the way…
Now, on top of that, the NPC in question, being a favored soul, utilized and obtains his magic in a different way than a cleric would. I’m the type of person who does believe casting based on a different stat is done differently, and thus I tend to make the allowance that a cleric could tell the caster near him was not using the same methodology he was with a low-to-mid religion check…same in that a wizard would be able to tell a sorceror in the midst of a magical battle. No, this is not in the rules as far as I know, but I don’t believe it’s a stretch at all, and if a player wanted their character to be a sorcerer faking wizardliness I’d probably let him anyways.
This particular NPC is actually mildly embarrassed by his status as a favored soul. FS, as a class, according to the fluff, is more tightly bound to their respective deity than most other divine classes. As such, he’s actually trying to be HUMBLE by explaining away his abilities and devotion as those of a paladin. He’s trying NOT to tell people he is a direct conduit to Pelor, because he’s actually rather embarrassed by the grandeur inherent in that claim and what it entails. It’s led to uncomfortable questions in the past and being branded as a madman. It has also led to people begging him to intercede with the god on their behalf, which…well…that’s very, very uncomfortable.
I am asking for mechanical ways to represent this because I want my players AND their characters to be taken in. Tricking characters is easy. Tricking the players themselves isn’t. I want them to be surprised to discover they’re walking around with someone who has some form of direct line to Pelor. However, I guess it doesn’t really matter. There have been some decent suggestions, though, so thank you.
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2010-01-27, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
The only reason I could think of for a cleric to single out a FS like that is jealousy. That's not very fitting of a Pelorite in any case.
Now, when the wings pop out the FS might have a problem - unrealistic expectations of him, difficulty of remaining incognito... it would definitely be difficult to pull of being "just a paladin" then. But as that won't happen until level 17, they'll be so far above commoners anyway that it'll probably be a nonissue.
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2010-01-27, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Buy a magical horse/get one as cohort. Get wonderous item of healing that is shaped like your holy symbol to simulate lay on hands. Get remove disease on it too. Every now and then say "I smite Evil!!!" Thats about it really.
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2010-01-27, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
It's actually the opposite. FS have less restrictions than clerics, not more. Observe:
Originally Posted by Complete Divine
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2010-01-27, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
We're talking about different things.
Clerics need to pray and request power from their deities. Favored Souls don't. They have it. Period. Their line to their deity is absolute and requires no secondary methodology.
"Tightly bound" in this case was the wrong term. Replace with "connected".
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2010-01-27, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Fair enough.
I don't really see the harm with telling people you're a paladin - or if you don't think you can bluff that well, "I smite Pelor's enemies in his name" should work fine.
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2010-01-28, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
I suspect that you want the heroes to see through him fairly quick... -If he is to appear effective he'll have to use his divine powers and if the players characters (not the players) know of a paladins trappings they see through him in a second.
I think that you should make him someone who tries to do the work of a paladin out of a yearning to be one, not a poser. He might even harbor some resentment towards "real" paladins, or his deity, because he was blessed "only" with the ability of divine spellcasting but not with the courage and strength needed to use it. He might at the same time idolize paladins who he sees as infallible and insusceptible to the hardships of disease, etc. that plague the common man.
I don't see how you can make him sufficiently like a paladin and I don't think you should either.Have him simply do the best he can to live up to the ideals of paladinhood and hope the players recognize that a noble soul is NOT a class feature.
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2010-01-28, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Paladin Pretender (3.5)
Have this guy follow the Paladin code... he's a paladin. Tada! I've actually had a Wizard NPC in a game once who was a paladin. He followed the appropriate code, had a horse, and fought for justice. He just did so while wearing light armor (he had a spellsword level) and casting spells instead of swinging a sword. And he rode out with other Paladins (one of whom was a Cleric/PrC Paladin/PrC Ranger/Halfling Outrider, another of whom was a straight class Paladin) and fought for justice.
But if you really want to emulate Paladin mechanics, dip Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead, and then take two levels of PrC Paladin. Finally, take the Holy Mount feat. You now have every Paladin class feature that matters at all (since your spells duplicate the rest) and a better mount than a normal Paladin. Good to go.
JaronK