[3.5] Scary DPS from the party rogue

[Myou]

I'm concerned that the rogue in my gestalt game is going to get overpowered, by level 20 he'll have 20 BAB and be able to make around ten attacks a round with ease, getting sneak attack on all of them (10d6 times ten) plus all the damage that you might expect a fighter or other martial class to do, and it seems like he'll be able to one-shot anything not immune to sneak attack.

But at the same time I know how easy it is to overreact to lots of dice. So, can anyone reassure me that it'll be ok? After all, rogues are meant to be average at best.

[Prime32]

Can you give use some more info on his build? You've only even mentioned one side of the gestalt.

How accurate are those attacks? If he's using TWF he'll be taking penalties, and the last attack or four probably isn't going to hit anyway.

How is he against enemies who are more than 30ft away? Or when there's nowhere to hide and he doesn't have a flanking partner?

The gestalt build you really have to worry about is rogue//ninja. (either sudden strike stacks with sneak attack and he's ridiculous, or it doesn't and he's useless)

[jokey665]

(10d6 times ten) plus all the damage that you might expect a fighter or other martial class to do

That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

[Grushvak]

That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

You just went and broke the game again. Why must you do this?

[jokey665]

You just went and broke the game again. Why must you do this?

Because it's fun!

[Myou]

Well, he's using a homebrewed class based on a rogue that can dimenion door a a wift action (it's powerful but not too bad), and the other side is unarmed swordsage (which I let have full BAB). He is TWFing, most of the time. He can always get flanking, thanks to SS abilities and his homebrewed class.

*Shudders at the rogue//ninja.*

[Glimbur]

Rogues are so easy to mess up it's not really funny. By level 20 it's completely reasonable for every significant threat to have at least Light Fortification. He also can't sneak attack anyone with miss chance (see Lesser Cloak of Displacement), and without some extra work he can't sneak attack undead or constructs or plants; and oozes and elementals just don't happen.

This makes it easy to control a rogue, if he is too powerful include some of these things. I would advise against making sneak attack useless entirely, he seems to have spent a lot on it so it's unfun if his gimmick never works.

Alternately, the party only fights oozes. Ever.

tl;dr Play as normal, if he's too good include some sneak resistant/immune things but don't overdo it.

[Grushvak]

Lesser Cloak of Displacement
Armor of Blurring or Greater Blurring (MIC)

Rogues are now obsolete. Feels bad man.

[Myou]

Rogues are so easy to mess up it's not really funny. By level 20 it's completely reasonable for every significant threat to have at least Light Fortification. He also can't sneak attack anyone with miss chance (see Lesser Cloak of Displacement), and without some extra work he can't sneak attack undead or constructs or plants; and oozes and elementals just don't happen.

This makes it easy to control a rogue, if he is too powerful include some of these things. I would advise against making sneak attack useless entirely, he seems to have spent a lot on it so it's unfun if his gimmick never works.

Alternately, the party only fights oozes. Ever.

tl;dr Play as normal, if he's too good include some sneak resistant/immune things but don't overdo it.

Mmmm, makes sense. But what about foes that won't have those protections? I mean, he'll be one-hitting anything not immune, that's going to make it pretty hard to challenge him without making him ueless.

I'd also feel really mean if I made too many things SA immune - it's pretty much his thing.

[jiriku]

If you are even remotely concerned about characters being overpowered, choosing to run a gestalt game might have been counterproductive. Likewise, unlimited swift-action dimension door is a very powerful ability.

TWF gets him to 8 attack per round. I assume he's getting to 10 using speed weapons or tiger claw maneuvers? Regardless, most any well-optimized melee character can deal several hundred damage with a full attack by 20th level.

The way you'll challenge him is not by nerfing his attacks, but by testing his defenses. Yes, he has a godly full attack, and can teleport to safety as a swift action, but he can still be shot. He can still fail a save. He can still be mauled by any enemy with pounce. Just ensure that your bad guys hit as hard as the good guys do, and he'll be forced to devote substantial resources to defense and make a well-rounded character.

[Myou]

If you are even remotely concerned about characters being overpowered, choosing to run a gestalt game might have been counterproductive. Likewise, unlimited swift-action dimension door is a very powerful ability.

TWF gets him to 8 attack per round. I assume he's getting to 10 using speed weapons or tiger claw maneuvers? Regardless, most any well-optimized melee character can deal several hundred damage with a full attack by 20th level.

The way you'll challenge him is not by nerfing his attacks, but by testing his defenses. Yes, he has a godly full attack, and can teleport to safety as a swift action, but he can still be shot. He can still fail a save. He can still be mauled by any enemy with pounce. Just ensure that your bad guys hit as hard as the good guys do, and he'll be forced to devote substantial resources to defense and make a well-rounded character.

Hmmm, that's a good point, yeah.
I guess I should try not to worry too much until he actually does get too strong - if it happens.

[Vizzerdrix]

That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

Umm... How so?

[Draz74]

Yeah, at Level 20, if a character isn't scary-good at something, he's pretty useless. That goes double in Gestalt.

So this particular character's specialty is lots of damage. So? CR 20 monsters can have lots of Hit Points. And maybe some Damage Reduction or Regeneration. And Tome of Battle maneuvers or Robilar's Gambit feats to help them counterattack when the glass cannon Rogue attacks them.

But if the Rogue does ever start to be a serious problem, I liked the suggestion of critters with Light or Medium Fortification to nerf his Sneak Attack without completely taking it away.

[faceroll]

Mmmm, makes sense. But what about foes that won't have those protections? I mean, he'll be one-hitting anything not immune, that's going to make it pretty hard to challenge him without making him ueless.

I'd also feel really mean if I made too many things SA immune - it's pretty much his thing.

Is there anyone else in the party? If there are, have mixed encounters. A lich badguy with living cleric followers, for instance.

[Lord of Syntax]

That's not too bad. My current rogue/wizard (non-gestalt) at level 20 will be capable of doing 10d4+150d6+210 as a full-round ranged touch attack using two 2nd level spell slots.

Can has build plz ktnxbye.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, what he's doing is less optimal than many of my straight builds. Heck, I had a non-gestalt build at level 15 that had way more damage output.

If he really wanted to twink out his damage output, he'd grab Craven (arguably +40 damage, since he has 20 class levels in two classes), and do some cherry-picking to increase his sneak attack dice further.

As people pointed out, without some kind of way to bypass Sneak Attack immunity, he's weaksauce in a level 20 game. Also, being able to apply sneak attacks is more difficult than you seem. Sure, with Island of Blades, he can flank anywhere as long as he's got a buddy adjacent. Trouble is... getting someone adjacent. Not always easy.

Also, Barbarians make him cry.

[ericgrau]

1. Not all 10 of those attacks are at full BAB. More like 3 are, plus 2 at an acceptable -5 penalty. And only on a full attack after you close in. In fact, you'd probably do much more damage with a bow once you get a reliable sneak attack trigger.

2. It's gestalt. Sitting right next to your rogue is a fighter type who can both deal decent damage and cast 9th level spells. I would hope that the encounters would be beefed up to match.

[Eldariel]

Mmmm, makes sense. But what about foes that won't have those protections? I mean, he'll be one-hitting anything not immune, that's going to make it pretty hard to challenge him without making him ueless.

I'd also feel really mean if I made too many things SA immune - it's pretty much his thing.

1) Give him Penetrating Strike. Means the infinite crit immune opponents (honestly, anyone worth being aware of near 20 is immune to crits; casters gain it through spells, warriors gain it through items and monsters gain it naturally or through wealth) actually don't completely gimp his damage (gives a nice middle-ground between "useless" and "insane").

2) The few things not immune to crits and ones that feasibly shouldn't be (The Tarrasque?) have so much HP that he'll be rolling those 100d6 worth of attacks at it for a while, even if all of them hit on anything but 1. He'll still take more than 3 turns up there.


I wouldn't worry about anything but him being underpowered. Things on 20 have a lot of HP by default. In gestalt, they should have way, way more (from CR buffs and Con-increasing items and so on) along with auxillary defenses (miss chances, crit immunities, X-affecting immunities, contingent effects, regeneration, revivification-capabilities, rerolls, counter-rolls, DR, damage-halvers, defensive immediate actions, etc.) to make the battles last more than 1 round on average.

[ArcanistSupreme]

How can any character with even one level of rogue have +20 BAB?

[Eldariel]

How can any character with even one level of rogue have +20 BAB?

Gestalt characters. Also, Divine Power, Tenser's Transformation and homebrew for standard characters, but this is Gestalt and not one of the above.

To answer your question, easily.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How can any character with even one level of rogue have +20 BAB?

Gestalt = taking the best of both classes. Other side likely has full BAB

also, I just had an idea about a Glaivelock//Rogue... there's your insane DPS

[jokey665]

Umm... How so?

Can has build plz ktnxbye.

Rog1/Wiz4/UnseenSeer1/Wiz1/UnseenSeer1/Swordsage1/UnseenSeer8/ArcaneTrickster3 for a total of Rog1/Wiz5/UnseenSeer10/Swordsage1/ArcaneTrickster3.

+8d6 sneak attack at level 20, with an additional +7d6 from persisted hunter's eye. If I get an item to boost my CL by 1 (not that hard at ECL 20) I can get an extra +1d6 from hunter's eye. Two (easy metamagic'd) ocular magic missiles. for 10d4+10 from the missiles, 15d6 on each missile for 150d6 (160d6 with the CL booster) and +200 from craven, 20 on each of the 10 missiles. Assuming CL boost; Min damage of 380, average of 795, max of 1210.

I get sneak attack from grease/greater invis/something to blind them/a few other tricks I have, and I've got true seeing to get past those pesky illusions. I've also got grave strike and golem strike just in case I fight undead or constructs.

The build's actual goal is to just use a sneak attack'd acidic splatter (24d6+20) every round, only bringing out tricks like that if I really need to.

My BAB is down the toilet from all the multiclassing (+10 at 20), but my starting dex is 20, +1 size (whisper gnome), and knowledge devotion help me out big time, so the ranged touch attacks aren't that hard to make.

[Eldariel]

You do realize SA only applies once on volley attacks, right? And you only get one attack roll for Ocular Magic Missile. Btw, I love using Divine Power in the Unseen Seer-shell, and making oldfashioned full attacks.

You persist Guided Shot, Xstrikes, Hunter's Eye, Sniper's Shot and so on meaning you can SA basically anything from anywhere and you suddenly become quite a frightening archer, especially since you can, if you so choose, fire a volley of Arrow of Bones instead of normal arrows. And none of that, except Persistent Divine Power, requires any trickery; it can all be done on normal slots with just Persistent Spell.

[jokey665]

You do realize SA only applies once on volley attacks, right? And you only get one attack roll for Ocular Magic Missile.

/shrug, the DM's allowing it.

[Myou]

Is there anyone else in the party? If there are, have mixed encounters. A lich badguy with living cleric followers, for instance.

Well, he loves to pick up NPCs for some adventures, but the only full time party member is my own character (yes, a DMPC, I've asked him multiple times if he has any problems with it, and he doesn't, besides which, I don't play favourites with my character - so far he's a lot weaker), a wizard who primarily buffs him.

I guess I could be fighting immune casters whle he takes on whatever tank-like monster they summoned, stuff like that.

Actually, what he's doing is less optimal than many of my straight builds. Heck, I had a non-gestalt build at level 15 that had way more damage output.

If he really wanted to twink out his damage output, he'd grab Craven (arguably +40 damage, since he has 20 class levels in two classes), and do some cherry-picking to increase his sneak attack dice further.

As people pointed out, without some kind of way to bypass Sneak Attack immunity, he's weaksauce in a level 20 game. Also, being able to apply sneak attacks is more difficult than you seem. Sure, with Island of Blades, he can flank anywhere as long as he's got a buddy adjacent. Trouble is... getting someone adjacent. Not always easy.

Also, Barbarians make him cry.

He's getting Craven after Adaptive Style. But there's no way it's giving double damage just because we're gestalt.

If all else fails a single swift action manouvre or a summon from my character will ensure it.

Huh? Barbarians? Why is that?

1. Not all 10 of those attacks are at full BAB. More like 3 are, plus 2 at an acceptable -5 penalty. And only on a full attack after you close in. In fact, you'd probably do much more damage with a bow once you get a reliable sneak attack trigger.

2. It's gestalt. Sitting right next to your rogue is a fighter type who can both deal decent damage and cast 9th level spells. I would hope that the encounters would be beefed up to match.

Mmmm, I guess that as long as I don't let him over-optimise his attack rolls, or I use foes with high AC, then it shouldn't be too devastating.

1) Give him Penetrating Strike. Means the infinite crit immune opponents (honestly, anyone worth being aware of near 20 is immune to crits; casters gain it through spells, warriors gain it through items and monsters gain it naturally or through wealth) actually don't completely gimp his damage (gives a nice middle-ground between "useless" and "insane").

2) The few things not immune to crits and ones that feasibly shouldn't be (The Tarrasque?) have so much HP that he'll be rolling those 100d6 worth of attacks at it for a while, even if all of them hit on anything but 1. He'll still take more than 3 turns up there.


I wouldn't worry about anything but him being underpowered. Things on 20 have a lot of HP by default. In gestalt, they should have way, way more (from CR buffs and Con-increasing items and so on) along with auxillary defenses (miss chances, crit immunities, X-affecting immunities, contingent effects, regeneration, revivification-capabilities, rerolls, counter-rolls, DR, damage-halvers, defensive immediate actions, etc.) to make the battles last more than 1 round on average.

Ohhhh, that's a great idea, yeah, Penetrating Strike.

I'm feeling less worried now, lots of good points and suggestions. :3

Whatever happens, he won't be underpowered - I woudn't let that happen.

[Roc Ness]

Gestalt = taking the best of both classes. Other side likely has full BAB

also, I just had an idea about a Glaivelock//Rogue... there's your insane DPS

I'm not an optimiser (gestalt is just easy to optimise), but for insane DPS you could play a halfling with ridiculous Dex, dip into swordsage on the rogue side (apart from stances all you really have is Flashing Sun, the Mongooses and a few boosts, but they are good. Get initiative boosters too, I think they are diamond mind). Now, for your rogue special ability pick up opportunist. For feats, look in CrystalKeep for Greater and Improved Combat Reflexes (+Combat Reflexes). Also, ability focus. For invocations, get repelling blast, eldritch glaive, and if you want synergy get wall of perilous flame or chilling tentacles.

Now you make three attacks per round that knock enemies backwards, preferably into chilling tentacles or wall of perilous flame. If you boost you initiative enough, they are all sneak attacks. You also have 5-9 AoO you can use on anyone who comes back, and you can hit each offender up to three times thanks to improved combat reflexes (unless they fail their save against repelling blast, in which case they are simply knocked back again). If you have a buddy, it's better, evrybody they hit will trigger up to three eldritch blast sneak attacks (unless they get knocked back again). If your buddy is a goliath with knockback, you can hit them up to six times...


I've never talked this much on optimisation before
EDIT: And penetrating strike too

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that after using Dimension Door you can't do anything at all until your next round. You cannot Dimension Door as a swift action and then full attack, you cannot even make AoOs after using it. Once you use Dimension Door, your round is over and you're automatically Dazed until your next turn comes. This is an effect of the spell for a reason, and should be enforced.

[Riffington]

But at the same time I know how easy it is to overreact to lots of dice. So, can anyone reassure me that it'll be ok? After all, rogues are meant to be average at best.

I don't know that anything is "meant" to be more or less than average (other than NPC classes). But anyway:

look at your other characters in the game. If this guy weren't here, figure out what enemies you might put them up against that would be challenging-but-beatable. Now add this guy in. Does he contribute to the challenge, making it "a bit less challenging"? Or does he make it a curbstomp?

[Cyclocone]

Huh? Barbarians? Why is that?

Improved Uncanny Dodge.

But meh; just get a Ring of Blinking.

[RebelRogue]

*Shudders at the rogue//ninja.*

Why? If I'm not mistaken, the sudden strike and sneak attack are considered similar enough that you only get one of them ("the best", which would mean the Sneak Attack) at odd levels. Also, isn't there some rule saying that you can generally only get +1d6 precision damage pr. 2 levels in gestalt, or am I making something up?