Tome of Battle Question

[Drolyt]

I'm a bit confused about how initiator level works, and it is important for a PrC I'm homebrewing. Does initiator level from different martial adept classes stack? Say if I were to make a Swordsage 6/Crusader 6 for some odd reason, would I have initiator level 12 in both classes or initiator level 9 in each class? I thought it was the former, but I read a post that disagrees. As a side note, the PrC is supposed to be entered from a non martial adept class and grants maneuvers, so I'm trying to figure out how to balance a feature that is essentially practiced spellcaster for initiator levels.

[Mongoose87]

You get half initiator level from other Martial Adept base classes, and full from Martial Adept PRCs.

It would be hard to unbalance such a feature. Same limitations - can't be above your total HD - would keep you to a reasonable Initiator Level.

[Douglas]

You would have Initiator Level 9 in each class. I think the book even specifically uses a base class/base class character in the example for calculating IL, so this is quite definite.

[Drolyt]

You get half initiator level from other Martial Adept base classes, and full from Martial Adept PRCs.

It would be hard to unbalance such a feature. Same limitations - can't be above your total HD - would keep you to a reasonable Initiator Level.

Alright. I haven't actually figured out exactly how the class will work, to get 9th level maneuvers it would have to either be taken at a late level or else have the base class continue progression somehow. I just didn't want someone to be able to take the base class, then my homebrewed PrC, and then top it off with a martial adept class. Thanks.
Ninja'd while typing:

You would have Initiator Level 9 in each class. I think the book even specifically uses a base class/base class character in the example for calculating IL, so this is quite definite.

Alright. Thanks for the reply.

[Darrin]

Alright. I haven't actually figured out exactly how the class will work, to get 9th level maneuvers it would have to either be taken at a late level or else have the base class continue progression somehow. I just didn't want someone to be able to take the base class, then my homebrewed PrC, and then top it off with a martial adept class.

Each base Martial Adept class calculates its IL independently, but Martial Adept PrCs add their full level to all Martial Adept base classes.

For example, a Swordsage 6/Warblade 4/Master of Nine 5 has two ILs: Swordsage IL = 13 (6 + 2 + 5), and Warblade IL = 12 (4 + 3 + 5).

Only PrCs that specifically advance maneuvers/stances in their description add their full levels to IL. For example, Master of Nine has a block of text that says it advances maneuvers/stances, but Bloodstorm Blade does not, so Bloodstorm Blade only adds 1/2 its levels to IL. If you're making a homebrew PrC, keep that in mind. If you want it to advance IL, just follow the template the other PrCs use in ToB.

[Drolyt]

Each base Martial Adept class calculates its IL independently, but Martial Adept PrCs add their full level to all Martial Adept base classes.

For example, a Swordsage 6/Warblade 4/Master of Nine 5 has two ILs: Swordsage IL = 13 (6 + 2 + 5), and Warblade IL = 12 (4 + 3 + 5).

Only PrCs that specifically advance maneuvers/stances in their description add their full levels to IL. For example, Master of Nine has a block of text that says it advances maneuvers/stances, but Bloodstorm Blade does not, so Bloodstorm Blade only adds 1/2 its levels to IL. If you're making a homebrew PrC, keep that in mind. If you want it to advance IL, just follow the template the other PrCs use in ToB.

No no, you misunderstood me. This PrC will be entered by a class that (most likely) isn't a martial adept (most likely a homebrewed Paladin variant I am working on) and it will have it's own maneuver progression. I needed to know whether adding levels of a martial adept class would increase the initiator level of the PrC. Moreover, the PrC will gain the ability to count Paladin levels as full initiator levels for the purposes of what maneuvers and stances the PrC can learn.

[DragoonWraith]

Typically, yes. All ToB PrCs have their own maneuver progression, and typically add their IL to the IL of all martial adept base classes. Unless you specifically say otherwise, that will be the case here.

[Drolyt]

Typically, yes. All ToB PrCs have their own maneuver progression, and typically add their IL to the IL of all martial adept base classes. Unless you specifically say otherwise, that will be the case here.

Hmm. I'll have to specific about it then. If it makes my intentions more clear, think of it like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest or some other PrC that has it's own spellcasting progression (as opposed to increasing caster levels of the base class), except it will have maneuvers.

[tyckspoon]

Hmm. I'll have to specific about it then. If it makes my intentions more clear, think of it like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest or some other PrC that has it's own spellcasting progression (as opposed to increasing caster levels of the base class), except it will have maneuvers.

Generally speaking, everything contributes to initiator level at the usual 1/2 value, whether it's a martial adept class or not. If you don't desire that, you'll need to add explicit language to the class in the same way you are making an addition for Paladin levels to count fully.

[Drolyt]

Generally speaking, everything contributes to initiator level at the usual 1/2 value, whether it's a martial adept class or not. If you don't desire that, you'll need to add explicit language to the class in the same way you are making an addition for Paladin levels to count fully.

I don't mind half-initiator level, that's just normal, I don't even mind of the initiator level of other martial adepts stacks with this PrC. However, I do not want this PrC to add to the initiator level of, say, the Warblade, since this PrC will gain significant maneuver progression as its meant to be a standalone martial adept in PrC form. By the way, where is everyone on here getting their info? ToB is really poorly organized, where do I even find info on how PrCs advance initiator levels?

[tyckspoon]

I don't mind half-initiator level, that's just normal, I don't even mind of the initiator level of other martial adepts stacks with this PrC. However, I do not want this PrC to add to the initiator level of, say, the Warblade, since this PrC will gain significant maneuver progression as its meant to be a standalone martial adept in PrC form.

Oh. Then.. just say it doesn't. "The focus required to follow the path of...blablabla... levels in this class do not advance the initiator level of any other classes that grant martial maneuvers. This is an exception to the normal rules for multiclassing and initiator level." Done. The standard rules only matter so far as you should know when you need to make it clear that you're changing them.

[Drolyt]

Oh. Then.. just say it doesn't. "The focus required to follow the path of...blablabla... levels in this class do not advance the initiator level of any other classes that grant martial maneuvers. This is an exception to the normal rules for multiclassing and initiator level." Done. The standard rules only matter so far as you should know when you need to make it clear that you're changing them.

Precisely. I didn't realize martial adept PrCs automatically added to the initiator level of all martial adept base classes until it was pointed out in this thread. Anyways thanks for the reply.

[Douglas]

By the way, where is everyone on here getting their info? ToB is really poorly organized, where do I even find info on how PrCs advance initiator levels?

Tome of Battle page 39, and the individual PrC descriptions.

[Drolyt]

Tome of Battle page 39, and the individual PrC descriptions.

Wait, the way I am reading it a PrC doesn't grant full initiator level unless it specifically says so. Some of the posts in this thread disagree. Which is it?

[Douglas]

7 of the 8 PrCs in ToB state that they count full for initiator level. They don't qualify this statement, so they count fully for all initiator levels you may have.

[Drolyt]

7 of the 8 PrCs in ToB state that they count full for initiator level. They don't qualify this statement, so they count fully for all initiator levels you may have.

So if I don't say anything like that it is not assumed?

[DragoonWraith]

Well, no, but then the class wouldn't count full for itself, which is a bad plan. You'd have to say something weird like "this class has a separate Maneuver progression from other classes, and does not add its full level to the Initiator Level to other classes that you may know maneuvers from" or something. Basically, this is unprecedented in Tome of Battle, so you need to make it explicit if that's how you want it to work.

[Drolyt]

Well, no, but then the class wouldn't count full for itself, which is a bad plan. You'd have to say something weird like "this class has a separate Maneuver progression from other classes, and does not add its full level to the Initiator Level to other classes that you may know maneuvers from" or something. Basically, this is unprecedented in Tome of Battle, so you need to make it explicit if that's how you want it to work.

Ok gotcha. I think I understand now. I'll come up with wording that doesn't sound too awkward. Thanks.

[Darrin]

Ok gotcha. I think I understand now. I'll come up with wording that doesn't sound too awkward. Thanks.

I don't understand why you're so worried about other Martial Adept classes stacking with this PrC. Even if the rest of his levels were all Warblade before going into this PrC, he would still need to be 17th level before he could get 9th level maneuvers (well, ok, there are a couple shenanigans to get around that, but they don't get played much).

How exactly does your PrC allow early access to high-level maneuvers if the PC already has Martial Adept levels from another class?

[Drolyt]

I don't understand why you're so worried about other Martial Adept classes stacking with this PrC. Even if the rest of his levels were all Warblade before going into this PrC, he would still need to be 17th level before he could get 9th level maneuvers (well, ok, there are a couple shenanigans to get around that, but they don't get played much).

How exactly does your PrC allow early access to high-level maneuvers if the PC already has Martial Adept levels from another class?

I'm probably worried over nothing, but I always try to be much more cautious than WotC when making rules. My original fear was based on my misunderstanding that all initiator levels stacked, but now I'm mainly worried about builds something like the following: Paladin 5/PrC that is essentially Paladin + maneuvers 10/Eternal Champion 4/Warblade 1, which would give the warblade like 5 9th level maneuvers at initiator level 17 if my PrC worked like the others do. This wouldn't be so bad, but my Paladin variant I've been working on is as strong as a martial adept class on its own, once this PrC is added they are both powerful and versatile, and adding a crapload of 9th level warblade maneuvers would seem to me unbalanced. Although maybe I'm making the maneuver equals martial spell connection too strongly here and a bunch of 9th level maneuvers isn't overpowered at all.

[Darrin]

I'm mainly worried about builds something like the following: Paladin 5/PrC that is essentially Paladin + maneuvers 10/Eternal Champion 4/Warblade 1, which would give the warblade like 5 9th level maneuvers at initiator level 17 if my PrC worked like the others do.

I'm still confused, but if you had 10 levels of a Martial Adept base class followed by Eternal Champion 4, then Warblade 1, the Warblade's IL would be 10 (Non-Warblade/2 + 4 + 1), which would only be good for 5th level maneuvers. Not sure how you get IL 17 from only 15 levels. When you take that Warblade level, you add Eternal Champion 4 to Warblade 1 for IL = 5, but you don't add the Eternal Champion to anything else. That "Paladin + maneuvers 10" only counts for +5 IL as far as the Warblade is concerned.

You may be overestimating the 9th level maneuvers as well. Most of them are just a standard action that does a lot of damage. A lot of damage doesn't really "win" D&D. Timestop Twin Split Ray Fell Drain Scorching Enervation wins. Most of the really "bwa-WOKEN" combos in ToB involve mid-range maneuvers.

[Tokiko Mima]

I had a fun build a while ago that was something like Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 5/Bloodclaw Master 3/Master of Nine 5 (not all in that order.) It got a ton of maneuvers, and eventually grabbed all the good 9th level ones. The whole point of it was to get as many maneuvers readied to count as Crusader Granted Maneuvers, so I could use their awesome refresh to full advantage.

Turned out to be kind of a waste in actual D&D. Fights end in 3 or 4 rounds usually, so I really wasn't that much better off than a straight warblade. It did have the advantage of always having something new and different to try in almost every fight, though. I think in general, the initiator level system is superior to the spellcasting/meldshaping/psionic/etc. advancement, where you have to focus on an individual skill and heaven help you if you try to do anything else well.

If I was rewriting 3.5 D&D, every class specific feature would advance like IL does.

[Drolyt]

I'm still confused, but if you had 10 levels of a Martial Adept base class followed by Eternal Champion 4, then Warblade 1, the Warblade's IL would be 10 (Non-Warblade/2 + 4 + 1), which would only be good for 5th level maneuvers. Not sure how you get IL 17 from only 15 levels. When you take that Warblade level, you add Eternal Champion 4 to Warblade 1 for IL = 5, but you don't add the Eternal Champion to anything else. That "Paladin + maneuvers 10" only counts for +5 IL as far as the Warblade is concerned.

You may be overestimating the 9th level maneuvers as well. Most of them are just a standard action that does a lot of damage. A lot of damage doesn't really "win" D&D. Timestop Twin Split Ray Fell Drain Scorching Enervation wins. Most of the really "bwa-WOKEN" combos in ToB involve mid-range maneuvers.

Well, yes, if I treated that PrC as a martial adept base class. But if I worded it incorrectly it could be interpreted as stacking with all other initiator levels like Eternal blade does.

I had a fun build a while ago that was something like Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 5/Bloodclaw Master 3/Master of Nine 5 (not all in that order.) It got a ton of maneuvers, and eventually grabbed all the good 9th level ones. The whole point of it was to get as many maneuvers readied to count as Crusader Granted Maneuvers, so I could use their awesome refresh to full advantage.

Turned out to be kind of a waste in actual D&D. Fights end in 3 or 4 rounds usually, so I really wasn't that much better off than a straight warblade. It did have the advantage of always having something new and different to try in almost every fight, though. I think in general, the initiator level system is superior to the spellcasting/meldshaping/psionic/etc. advancement, where you have to focus on an individual skill and heaven help you if you try to do anything else well.

If I was rewriting 3.5 D&D, every class specific feature would advance like IL does.

Well, one of the homebrew rules I'm working on will make combat longer, so you would be able to use all your maneuvers.

[Darrin]

[QUOTE=Drolyt;7781370]Well, yes, if I treated that PrC as a martial adept base class. But if I worded it incorrectly it could be interpreted as stacking with all other initiator levels like Eternal blade does.

Huh? Yes, Eternal Blade adds its full levels to any Martial Adept base class, but only once for that class. A Swordsage 5/Warblade 5/Eternal Blade 10 has an IL of 17.5, and only gets a 9th level maneuver at level 20.

[Drolyt]

[QUOTE=Darrin;7783299]

Well, yes, if I treated that PrC as a martial adept base class. But if I worded it incorrectly it could be interpreted as stacking with all other initiator levels like Eternal blade does.

Huh? Yes, Eternal Blade adds its full levels to any Martial Adept base class, but only once for that class. A Swordsage 5/Warblade 5/Eternal Blade 10 has an IL of 17.5, and only gets a 9th level maneuver at level 20.

That's correct. However, if you somehow were able to get into a martial adept prestige class as, say, a Swordsage 3/Warblade 3, took it for 10 levels, then took 4 more levels in another martial adept prestige class, your initiator level in both classes would be 3 + 10 + 4 + 1.5 or 18.5. Well, okay that's not that broken, but it would be stronger than just going Warblade 20.

[Susano-wo]

just a FYI: any other class adds +1/2 IL to your character. It states that it does not have to be a Martial Adept Class

[Darrin]

That's correct. However, if you somehow were able to get into a martial adept prestige class as, say, a Swordsage 3/Warblade 3, took it for 10 levels, then took 4 more levels in another martial adept prestige class, your initiator level in both classes would be 3 + 10 + 4 + 1.5 or 18.5. Well, okay that's not that broken, but it would be stronger than just going Warblade 20.

No, it wouldn't. A Warblade 20 gets 9th level maneuvers at ECL 17.

A Swordsage 3/Warblade 3/Prc1 10/Prc2 4 gets 9th level maneuvers at ECL 19, two levels later than a straight Warblade.

[deuxhero]

7 of the 8 PrCs in ToB state that they count full for initiator level. They don't qualify this statement, so they count fully for all initiator levels you may have.

What's the deal with the 8th?

[Mongoose87]

What's the deal with the 8th?

It's useless, unless you like throwing stuff.

[Drolyt]

It's useless, unless you like throwing stuff.

Most of them seam worthless to me. Or at least a couple of them just seem better than the rest.