Classless game systems

[Coidzor]

So one of my friends and I have been discussing a world-idea where there's not so much classes as, well, a certain amount of points at character generation that go to determining one's abilities rather than having class features and the like.

So far I've only had mutants and masterminds (I think) and GURPS come up as things to look at to possibly use as either a base or just to play it in.


We're also a bit curious about alternatives to the sort of schools of magic present in DnD 3.5, where the types of spells are schools unto themselves (like say, defensive and offensive self-only buffs, healing (and group-buffs), and direct-damage blasting being different schools{or another, better term to mechanically separate them[mmm, mechanically separated spell components]}) rather than having such spells being divvied up between places. Basically their placement following their function, yah.

Edit: Explication: So the rough idea is a game where everyone's at least partially magic-based, and some idea of ways of breaking up magic into chunks other than say, divine vs. arcane or 8 schools which have some muddled overlapping.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

FATAL certainly lacks class.

[Hida Reju]

Well you have named 2 of the main ones with Gurps and M&M.

Another couple you can use if you can find a copy is Aberrant or Adventure D10 system from White Wolf. Both used a point system for character creation and are not world of dorkness.

Another system that some people (read few) like is the Amber Diceless system that is pure point based.

For a comedy system "Tales from the Floating Vagabond" was point based I believe but I can not remember completely.

And if you are prepared you could try Guardians of Order and its BESM system.

[root9125]

Well, shadowrun. And if you happen to be hosting in the cleveland area...

[Raiki]

Don't mind Pharoah...he's just completely incapable of taking anything seriously...and he enjoys luring people into visiting the Admiral.

Anyway, I would highly recommend GURPS. While character creation can certainly be a bit intense the first time or two, it's well worth the effort. You know how you can do ANYTHING in 3.5 if you try hard enough? GURPS took this idea and fed it a diet of steroids and crack. You can make a character that does Literally. Any. Thing.

To name a few that I've made/seen:
The flying southern gentleman who calculated advanced geometry and physics in his head to ricochet bullets from his "revolvers of never-ending smite-dom" around corners and through villians' eyes. (Modern Supers game)

The 9 year old Absinth addicted speeder girl who could head-butt someone fast enough to make them explode...and had a severe eating disorder. (Victorian Age Supers game).

The psychic sentient anaconda who ran his own circus and could warp the entire thing from one dimension to another. (Shockingly enough...in a Reality Warping Side-Show game)

Also, a few friends and I have statted out quite a few pop icons, from most of the X-Men, to the greek Titans, to Al Gore (don't ask why, I don't remember).

Anyway, I give a solid +1 to GURPS. Any game you want to play, it can handle.

/Long Post.

~R~

[RandomLunatic]

Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, Dark Heresy, and Rogue Trader can all be added to the list.

[Kallisti]

Don't mind Pharoah...he's just completely incapable of taking anything seriously...

Lies. FATAL seriously lacks class.

[Raum]

So one of my friends and I have been discussing a world-idea where there's not so much classes as, well, a certain amount of points at character generation that go to determining one's abilities rather than having class features and the like.

So far I've only had mutants and masterminds (I think) and GURPS come up as things to look at to possibly use as either a base or just to play it in.

Assuming you're asking for more systems...
Skill / Ability based systems:

• ORE (See Wild Talents for an example.)
• Savage Worlds
• FATE
• Wushu
• Risus
• Over the Edge

Archetype (loose classing) based systems:

• Unisystem
• Shadowrun
• True 20

Career / Life path systems:

• WFRP
• Traveller

...just a few of many.

We're also a bit curious about alternatives to the sort of schools of magic present in DnD 3.5, where the types of spells are schools unto themselves (like say, defensive and offensive self-only buffs, healing (and group-buffs), and direct-damage blasting being different schools{or another, better term to mechanically separate them[mmm, mechanically separated spell components]}) rather than having such spells being divvied up between places. Basically their placement following their function, yah.

You might look at Ars Magica. But I'm not really clear on what you're asking...are you wanting a magic system to use in d20 or examples of systems with differing methods of representing magic?

[Coidzor]

Visiting the Admiral? I'm not quite sure what that means, and I'm slightly disturbed by it.

I know about FATAL and Pharoh's Fistbeard Beardfisting exploits.

[Kaun]

Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, Dark Heresy, and Rogue Trader can all be added to the list.

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both class based games.

[Swordgleam]

tri-stat dX is a fun point-buy system. The company making it went under, but you should still be able to find the core rules .pdf for free online somewhere.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Visiting the Admiral? I'm not quite sure what that means, and I'm slightly disturbed by it.

To wit:

[drengnikrafe]

Upon reading the title of this, my first thought was "Hey, didn't Final Fantasy II (the one with... umm... Fyron and The Emperor, I think) do this?" It was something like that anyway. Granted, it's not a game system, but it could be used as a point of reference.

[Tinydwarfman]

Edit: Explication: So the rough idea is a game where everyone's at least partially magic-based, and some idea of ways of breaking up magic into chunks other than say, divine vs. arcane or 8 schools which have some muddled overlapping.

Use GURPS standard, syntactic, symbol, ritual, threshold, investment and power based systems in the same game and have them each as competing against each other as rival guilds/schools of magic.

(syntactic = word/noun magic that is very open ended;
symbol = syntactic but must draw symbol or used carved tokens;
ritual/technique = most magic is completed through lengthy rituals and have subtle but powerful effects, in combat is harder;
Clerical investment = divine magic;
threshold = variant way of spending energy, no change in actual spells;
power based = magic bought as power advantages, not very versatile after creation, but can be quite powerful)

Or just pick one them

[T.G. Oskar]

Another couple you can use if you can find a copy is Aberrant or Adventure D10 system from White Wolf. Both used a point system for character creation and are not world of dorkness.

Trinity Universe, you mean?

Recall that both Adventure! (no kidding, it has the exclamation point), Aberrant and Trinity are essentially the same world in different timelines. All are meant to represent different things (pulp fiction for Adventure!, science fiction for Trinity, and...either Heroes or The 4400 for Aberrant: the devs explicitly say that Aberrant is not a superhero game in the sense of Golden Age/Silver Age superheroism), and all are meant to spearhead various "powers": superpowers on Aberrant, psionics on Trinity, and plain luck on Adventure, though versions of superpowers exist on the latter one and proto-psionics exist on Aberrant as well, while super-powered beings are the evil guys on Trinity.

It's important to mention the bind between the three, since they are basically interdependent: you can make an epic campaign with all three games' lore, or play it independently and do it right. In fact, just Aberrant has several playing styles (the superheroes, the monsters, the gladiators/wrestlers-with-superpowers, the outcasts...) within the same book, so you can play very different games.

Also, it depends on whether you can stomach the Storyteller's System without bias from WoD. It uses a very similar mechanic (much as how d20 Modern and D&D use a same mechanic; aka, it uses the same game mechanics but not the same character creation standards). As a rule of thumb, if you don't like the most recent edition of Shadowrun, Trinity Universe may not be the right choice.

Also, another vote for Shadowrun (any edition); it's the premise that's interesting, period. It has archetypes (Mage, Decker/Hacker, Rigger, Adept, Mystic Adept, Technomancer, Street Samurai) but you don't have to follow exactly those archetypes. They are just common archetypes you may see while playing, but you don't have to follow them like classes do (except perhaps those that follow Magic or Resonance, which makes about half the characters, but then again you don't need a "class" for it, just the quality/Attribute/Advantage/whatchamacallit). Each has a different method of playing, though, which...can be confusing for whomever does the GMing.

[rezplz]

The only class-less system that I've played is RuneQuest. As far as I could tell, it seemed to be focused around playing normal dudes with normal jobs that could be turned into heroes (or villians, I suppose.) I didn't play it for very long but I think the magic system was a little unbalanced. (The best way to be a magic user was to be a shaman with a really good POW score. They kinda functioned like sorcerers with power points. Divine magic had only one-use spells that you had to re-learn after using them. Sorcery treated magic spells like skills, and you had to level up each spell in order to cast it with any reliability) It was definitely an interesting take on the magic system, though. Magic in general wasn't overpowered either, and everybody had at least a little bit. At least in the version that I played, anywho. I didn't really like the newest version of it.

Oh, and you could play a duck. Walking ducks that were just a little bigger than halflings. It was awesome.

Don't really know how it compares to other class-less gaming systems though.

[Knaight]

Assuming you're asking for more systems...
Skill / Ability based systems:

• ORE (See Wild Talents for an example.)
• Savage Worlds
• FATE
• Wushu
• Risus
• Over the Edge

Archetype (loose classing) based systems:

• Unisystem
• Shadowrun
• True 20

Career / Life path systems:

• WFRP
• Traveller

...just a few of many.

You might look at Ars Magica. But I'm not really clear on what you're asking...are you wanting a magic system to use in d20 or examples of systems with differing methods of representing magic?

Adding Fudge to the Skill based, Barbarians of Lemuria to archetype based.

On magic, one of my preferred methods is the 4 by 5 method in Fudge. Basically, there are X noun magic skills, and Y verb magic skills, and each spell is a YX format. For instance:
Nouns: Energy, Matter, Life, Mind
Verbs: Create, Destroy, Transmute, Transport

If you have the Create and Energy skills, you can cast Create energy. Lower of the 2 skills used to roll with. Those particular examples are really, really powerful. It also allows specialization. For instance, with 3 skills you can have Create, Energy, and Matter. Which gives you 2 spells, Create Energy, and Create Matter. You could also just take Create Energy and Create matter as skills, which is cheaper, but if you later learn, say Destroy and Life, suddenly the individual skills thing is expensive, which balances on its own. The individual "spells" can be defined as much as desired. http://www.panix.com/~sos/rpg/4by5.html is the link.

[frogspawner]

So one of my friends and I have been discussing a world-idea where there's not so much classes as, well, a certain amount of points at character generation that go to determining one's abilities rather than having class features and the like. ... So the rough idea is a game where everyone's at least partially magic-based, and some idea of ways of breaking up magic into chunks other than say, divine vs. arcane or 8 schools which have some muddled overlapping.

Basic RolePlaying is what you're looking for: the original and best skill-based RPG.

The very popular Call of Cthulhu is the Horror-oriented sub-set of BRP.
But BRP does Fantasy superbly too, and has a variety of magic systems, which you can pick-and-choose between to get just the feel you want. (In it's incarnation as RuneQuest, it made famous the fantasy world of Glorantha - yes, the one with the Ducks, mentioned above. But it's not true to call the characters from there 'ordinary dudes' - far from it!). It's tried-and-trusted system, been going as long as D&D, and was it's main rival back in the day (only losing out due to corporate mishandling, imho).

A new version of RuneQuest has come out this very week, from MOngoose publishing. And is much improved over their 1st edition, I hear.

Give BRP and/or RQ a try, you won't regret it. (My sig has the BRP QuickStart - that version doesn't include any magic, but will show you the system and the points-build. And has 7 mini-adventures!)

[Dimers]

To add to what others have said about Shadowrun: it doesn't enforce classes, but a couple team roles appear to be fairly self-establishing in a way that makes them similar to classes. Other roles are far more open. There are dozens of ways to help out in combats, but only two ways to hack computers -- and if you're a hacker, you won't be able to do a whole lot else; there just aren't enough build points for each character to cover all the bases themselves.

Shadowrun's magic system (at least as of 4th ed, the current version) sounds not entirely unlike what you're looking for. The seven magic types are Combat, Detection, Healing, Illusion, Manipulation, spirit work, and self-improvement. Some of those are means and some are ends.

[Satyr]

Another really fun classless game are the different Unisystem games, like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, or Witchcraft (free download of the core book makes Witchcraft the game with the best price / quality ration known to mankind), which focuses quite heavily on supernatural powers. The predecessor of Witchcraft, Armageddon is a kitchen sink of awesomeness game, and very fun (it basically consists of Call of Cthulhu without the hyperbole, Command and Conquer, the legions of heaven and hell united against a common enemy, spellcasters in any occlt tradition, demigods and avatars of old religions... it's the "an angel, a devil, Thor and Merlin unite to kick Yog-Sototh's behind" game).
It is also mechanically very well made, using the old Fuzion style roll and add mechanism (which is also used by D&D nowadays), and the rules for magic are a bit complex, but very fun.

The other game that I can truly recommend and which wasn't mentioned in this thread before is Unknown Armies. It's a bit hard to describe, but UA is the game with the one of the best magic systems around (magic comes from paradox. Find a nice paradox, snap out of the world as you know it, and become a spellcaster) and it is one the few games that allows players to go for the big targets - like becoming a god. It also don't bother with traditional magic (it's in there, it's just not very popular) and has nice new magic schools - some of them a bit weird, like TV-based divination, others a bit creepy like Epidomancy, the cutter's magic (getting satisfaction from hurting yourself is a pretty good paradoxon) or just plain awesome (modern alchemists deal in chemical drugs). On the other hand you have the avatars, people who try to become one of the great conceptual roles in the public subconsciousness (like the Demagogue, the Messenger, or the True King) and can channel their role's powers over time.
The interesting thing about Unknown Armies is, that magic while it is featured heavily in the game is not the universal solution for everything. While you can do very cool stuff with your magic, it doesn't keep you from thinking for yourself. And combats are really, really painful.

Otherwise, Gurps is usually a good choice. As a rule of thumb, you can replace 80 - 90% of all game systems with Gurps and significantly improve your game.

What kind of genre are you interested in?

[Dairun Cates]

Let's see. Off the top of my head, ones that haven't already been mentioned...

BESM (2nd or 3rd edition and the 1 million variation books)
Hero
Fuzion
Risus
Burning Empires
Burning Wheel
Hong Kong Action Theatre
Paranoia
Teenagers from Outer Space
DC Heroes
Marvel Heroes
Amber Diceless
OAV
Everyone is John
Most things under storyteller and white wolf are archetypal, but not class-based and a few have nothing like that at all (I think 7th Sea is under the storyteller system)

and I THINK Toon is classless.

There's a lot more, but those are the ones off my head.

Oh, and I suppose you could help me beta-test the Pirates vs. Ninjas system I'm developing and beta-testing as we speak, but despite being classless, it really only works best if you actually like being a pirate/ninja/other kind of bad arse.

MOST of those are at least decent, but it really depends on what you want to do and what everyone wants to run. Figure out the setting first. It'll narrow things down.

Edit: Ah. Didn't completely read apparently. You do have an idea then. I'd recommend Burning Wheel among those (although, Risus works for just about anything). It's typical fantasy, completely classless and actually has a magic system. On top of all of that, the system actually rewards non-combat actions as equally as combat actions. If you pick a lot of locks, you will get good at lock-picking. If you swing a lot of swords, you will get good at swordplay.

[Edmund]

There's always WEG's D6 Fantasy.

[Partysan]

I know about FATAL and Pharoh's Fistbeard Bearfisting exploits.

You might want to consider adding a "d". Spares a lot of brain bleach.

[JaronK]

I'll second Shadowrun as a good system for this. It has an almost classless system (you could say cyber characters, adepts, and mages are the classes, but they're so broad that it hardly fits), and magic that can specialize like that.

JaronK

[frogspawner]

I'll second Shadowrun...

But ShadowRun is cyberpunk - not really suited to the magic-oriented world Coidzor seems to want.

[JaronK]

I wasn't sure from the OP. Shadowrun is magical cyberpunk, so if he just wants magic without classes it works. If he wants high fantasy, then you're absolutely right and it's not appropriate. I just love that game (at least, I love 3rd edition).

JaronK

[TheCountAlucard]

No love for Exalted?

[frogspawner]

I wasn't sure from the OP. Shadowrun is magical cyberpunk, so if he just wants magic without classes it works. If he wants high fantasy, then you're absolutely right and it's not appropriate. I just love that game (at least, I love 3rd edition).

Maybe they should try it anyway. (How is it for point-building characters, btw?) If nothing else, it'd give an alternative take on magic - and help firm-up ideas of what their group wants out of a game-system. Or they may love it too, and wave straight Sword-and-Sorcery bye-bye...

[Coidzor]

Give BRP and/or RQ a try, you won't regret it. (My sig has the BRP QuickStart - that version doesn't include any magic, but will show you the system and the points-build. And has 7 mini-adventures!)

Sounds interesting. Though the link in your signature is broken and just redirects to the main site.

You might want to consider adding a "d". Spares a lot of brain bleach.

...I'm-a go do that now...

...Though I imagine a fighting style known as bear fist wouldn't be too out of place with him...

Shadowrun's magic system (at least as of 4th ed, the current version) sounds not entirely unlike what you're looking for. The seven magic types are Combat, Detection, Healing, Illusion, Manipulation, spirit work, and self-improvement. Some of those are means and some are ends.

This definitely does seem quite close to the sort of breakdown we were discussing.

[JaronK]

Maybe they should try it anyway. (How is it for point-building characters, btw?)

Note that I only know 3rd edition, but it's fine with the point buy system. It's sort of classed in that you have to chose to have magic in creation... if you don't, you'll never get it. But that's where classes end. It's also very easy to optimize exactly to the point where the designers want you to be at... 6s in your primary role skills and abilities, and in your primary stats, and then have fun from there. It's also shockingly balanced. It's one of few games I know of where being magical does not make you more or less powerful, it's just one potential means to an end. In the long term after lots of play mages get overpowered, but that's WAY down the line unless you had out karma like candy.

JaronK