Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 168
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    The "DnD Yourself theory" thread got me thinking about stats in DnD. I know there are set weight capacities for strength, but what about the rest of the stats? Obviously there can't really be a numerical value for constitution in real life, but has anyone ever done a % system? Like for instance a con 16 in real life would be the top 5% percentile of the population? Do 18s exist in real life? What would stephen hawking's intelligence be?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Hmm- Con is used in things like holding breath, endurance marches, etc. Maybe these sort of things could be used as a basis for the tests?

    For example, it's a DC 10 Con check to walk for more than 8 hours in a day without taking "nonlethal damage"- might represent blisters, muscle exhaustion, etc. And the check goes up by +2 every hour.

    Similarly, a running character must make a DC 10 check (+1 per extra round) to run for each round after the first X rounds. Where X is their Con score.

    Once you're "fully fit" but haven't actually boosted your upper body strength enough to qualify for a Str increase, you could be said to be "using your normal Con score to full effect" without penalties for being unfit.

    Thus, a person's "optimal endurance" could be used as a basis for guesstimating their Con.

    (The person should be able to run at about 12 mph, and this speed should be used for the tests, unless the person is so good at it, that it could be suggested that they have the Run and/or Endurance feats- in which case, the higher speed is used, and/or the Endurance modifiers added)
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-28 at 04:45 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    I could fairly easily design tests for Str and Con. They're linked to things like carrying capacity, run speed, etc. Dex has less objective links, but it still is physical, and thus, they can be arranged.

    It's the mental stats that are hard to measure objectively. It's not as if it's trivial to determine someone's wisdom.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    The tricky part is determining what level the person has, as a base to start from

    For Dex, seeing how good a person is at "ranged attacks" might be a place to start- but you'd need to know ahead of time that they were, say, Level 1, so to speak.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The tricky part is determining what level the person has, as a base to start from

    For Dex, seeing how good a person is at "ranged attacks" might be a place to start- but you'd need to know ahead of time that they were, say, Level 1, so to speak.
    And proficiencies. Hmmm. What about that test that measures your response time? Like a light flashes and you hit a button as soon as you see it. The closer you are to the base neuron speed (max dex) the higher your dex is, perhaps? Max dex I'd think would be 18 (or 20?) since none of us are super hero types.

    Wis- is also used for willpower. A simple test for how long you can keep your hand in ice water might suffice. But not the whole experience thing.

    Int- I guess would be closest to IQ tests, but we're learning IQ is only one part of the equation and we haven't created non biased tests yet for the rest.

    But besides all that, has it ever said in DnD if a normal person can have a score of 18? Or what's the max in other words for "normal?" I know average is 10-12, but I mean, non adventurer "normal" to the extreme, such as stephen hawking's intelligence?
    Last edited by randomhero00; 2010-01-28 at 05:06 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    The elite array, seems to be the norm for NPC specialists, in DMG2.

    So, if you went to someone who has made "knowledge: X" their career, you'd expect them to have had an Int of 15 at 1st level.

    And so on. 15 for Best Stat is something that, while unusual, is not "adventurer-level unusual"

    The Arms and Equipment Guide, however, suggests most hirelings will use the "standard ability score array" with 13 as their best stat. And includes sages on that list.

    So, it might work like this.

    Int 13 is your normal university graduate.

    Int 15 is your typical doctorate candidate.

    Int 18 is your "prodigy"

    In this case, a person specializing in Knowledge X, might reasonably be seen as the D&D equivalent of a degree student.

    It might be interesting to think about what proportion of people in a D&D setting get:

    the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10)
    the nonelite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), called the standard array in A&EG
    the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
    rolled stats (whatever the dice say)

    and whether it could be applied to this question.

    Cityscape, for some of the sample generic NPCs, appears to take the nonelite array as a basis, but all except the best stat are averaged-
    (13, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10)

    Or, 11 and 9 are replaced with 10 and 10, so-
    (13, 12, 10, 10, 10, 8)
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-28 at 05:32 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Glass Mouse's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Icy North
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    Wis- is also used for willpower. A simple test for how long you can keep your hand in ice water might suffice. But not the whole experience thing.
    Wouldn't that measure con?
    Spoiler
    Show


    Challenge badge
    , courtesy of HeadlessMermaid.

    Avatar courtesy of the talented Neoriceisgood. Features Pumpkin from my webcomic.


  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    How long you can immerse you whole self in ice-water and not get hypothermia is Con-related- you make Con checks with increasing difficulty.

    But ability checks are very luck-based- one guy with Con 18 might get unlucky and fail his check early, on guy with Con 10 might not fail his check for a while.

    Plus, its a risky sort of way to estimate a stat.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-28 at 05:52 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The midwest.

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    There are none. D&D stats are a simplification of one's real-life abilities.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post

    Int 13 is your normal university graduate.

    Int 15 is your typical doctorate candidate.
    I'm not sure these are quite fair.
    Int 11 is your normal university graduate these days.
    Int 15 isn't just a doctorate candidate - it's the guy the other PhD students look up to.

    There's actually a big issue with Strength as well: we "test" it via lifting, but that only applies to people have no actual skill in lifting (which adds to bench press without adding as much to usable strength). Mike Tyson may have deserved an 18, but he was never a great lifter.
    Last edited by Riffington; 2010-01-28 at 05:54 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shpadoinkle View Post
    There are none. D&D stats are a simplification of one's real-life abilities.
    True- but if a real world person, can do everything Str-based that a Level 1 D&D character with Str 18 can, you could say that their strength is roughly equivalent to D&D Str 18.

    While some people suggest relying solely on the Lift, I think Carrying as well should be involved- can you run, with a Light Load for your suggested Strength? Walk for 8 hours? Hustle for 1 hour?

    On Int- I might be oversimplifying slightly. But, a person who makes a career out of what would be an Int based skill, shouldn't really be less intelligent than a D&D hireling.

    Similarly, a person who is fairly "top of the line" so to speak, in that career, a professor then, not just a doctor, or a research scientist, I think should be Int 15- they don't have to be the Einstein of their generation.

    This will be very much a generalization, but I think it would work something like this, for "real world stat equivalents".

    Int 13- average BSc
    Int 15- average PhD or Professorship

    (This is their Int just as they reach adulthood, not after "levelling up in Expert" so to speak)

    I'm not sure if this would apply to other degrees, some might work a bit differently.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-28 at 06:03 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SexyPlantLover's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Manhattan, KS
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Our group goes over this every so often too.

    for STR is carrying capacity table
    for DEX is the ruler drop test
    for CON, how long you can hold your breath, how often you get sick

    mental scores are more difficult
    INT: 10 is ave high school grad, 13-14 is 4yr degree, 16-18 is multiple PhD
    WIS we've never really agreed on, but I like to guess it's based on gullibilty, street smarts, ability to find waldo, and see through optical illusions
    CHA: I think it is a combo of attractiveness (are you a 7 or a 10) and if you are a leader or talkative person

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Swordgleam's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Str has a measurement - the carrying capacities. So why not base everything else off that?

    For example, let's say someone can carry enough to have 12 str. They're tougher than they are strong, but less agile, so they have 14 con and 10 dex. They're much, much smarter than they are strong, so maybe they have 16 int. Etc.

    It's not perfect, but I think it's the only way you'll have a chance at the mental stats. You could use something like IQ or standardized test scores for Int, but Wis and Cha?
    Last edited by Swordgleam; 2010-01-29 at 01:19 AM.
    Some things I do that you might enjoy:
    Chaotic Shiny - Random generators of all types for gaming and writing (including characters, names, taverns, cities, pantheons, languages, and 60+ more)
    Chaotic Shiny Productions - Flavor-packed D&D supplements (mostly 4e), plus some systemless free products and software
    Latest: Kingdom Builder Generator Pack II

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tengu_temp's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Poland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    I'm not sure these are quite fair.
    Int 11 is your normal university graduate these days.
    Int 15 isn't just a doctorate candidate - it's the guy the other PhD students look up to.
    I don't see any sense in linking intelligence with education. Education is represented by the academic skills you have.

    Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
    Spoiler
    Show





  15. - Top - End - #15
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Education = ranks in knowledge. Or maybe profession/craft.

    It's easy to check INT, you just figure out how many bonus spells/day they get.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Trying to measure any of the mental stats isn't going to work. They are much too complicated and nuanced for us to get anything close to a fair test (See: IQ Test Controversy). Education doesn't work: Thats essentially skills.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    This article - D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations - covers just the subject.
    Last edited by frogspawner; 2010-01-29 at 03:53 AM.
    Get Chaosium's Basic RolePlaying Quick-Start FREE from BRP Central!

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    I don't see any sense in linking intelligence with education. Education is represented by the academic skills you have.
    True- but in D&D at least, people specializing in a skill, tend to have a best stat which is the one associated with that skill.

    So an "ordinary sage" with Knowledge X as their "career skill" would probably have started out with Int 13, and taken the Skill Focus feat, and maxed-out ranks in Knowledge history. And be the equivalent of an "ordinary scientist"

    But an "elite specialist" would have all this, and Int 15 as starting stat, and be a "great scientist", or at the very least, a "talented scientist" (probably professorship, postdoctorate, etc)

    And the same combination of Skill Focus, maxed ranks, but with Int 18 starting stat, would be associated with a prodigy, not just a "great scientist"- but one of the greatest of their generation.

    That is, their stat just as they reach adulthood, would be Int 18. At the peak of their career, they would have "leveled up" enough to have a lot of Int boosts, so to speak.

    Education is skills- but people who make a career out of those skills, tend to have a "natural aptitude" for them- a high base stat, in short.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-29 at 03:51 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    I don't see any sense in linking intelligence with education. Education is represented by the academic skills you have.
    Yes, absolutely. But those academic skills require some intelligence to acquire.
    It's really hard to get through college with an IQ below 90. So the average college student IQ is higher as a result (cut out all the 85 IQ people and most of the 90s; keep all the 120s and 180s).
    Similarly, it's hard to get a doctorate degree (except in the soft sciences) with an IQ below 115 or so. So the average PhD is going to have an Int of 13 or so.
    You can absolutely have an uneducated farmer with an IQ of 180. But if you're looking for people with Int 18, you'll have better luck at Yale or MIT than if you look at random.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    True- but in D&D at least, people specializing in a skill, tend to have a best stat which is the one associated with that skill.

    So an "ordinary sage" with Knowledge X as their "career skill" would probably have started out with Int 13, and taken the Skill Focus feat, and maxed-out ranks in Knowledge history. And be the equivalent of an "ordinary scientist"

    But an "elite specialist" would have all this, and Int 15 as starting stat, and be a "great scientist", or at the very least, a "talented scientist" (probably professorship, postdoctorate, etc)
    So, I agree with this except your definition of "ordinary" or "talented". A professor is your "ordinary sage".
    Your elite specialist shouldn't be just a prof or postdoc. He should be the prof or postdoc or auto mechanic or locksmith that all the other profs (or whoemever) look up to.
    A random hireling doesn't get the elite array. A random hireling gets the standard array, with the attributes not necessarily optimized. An elite hireling (the kind you have to seek out by reputation) gets the elite array.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Iku Rex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    I believe the average person in DnD has 3d6 stats. So you want to start with this: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tec...dice_rolls.htm .

    One implication of the 3d6 assumption is that "extraordinary" ability scores aren't that extraordinary.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Might be interesting to look at proportions.

    What proportion of the adult population of a country have, or are working toward- professorship level?

    If "professor-level intelligence" is one in a thousand, or even one in a million, then saying that this is "equivalent to Int 13" seems like a bit of a stretch.

    Being a post-doctorate scientist at all, is quite a way from "ordinary intelligence"

    Hence, I see Int 15 as merely "likely to turn out to be a scientist of some note"

    Or, some other Int-related career- not all Knowledge skills are science, after all.

    Professor might count as being a few steps above Doctor- with Int 13 being "capable of passing a PhD" and Int 15 "capable of getting tenure at a prestigious university"

    (Note that these all refer to their Int before they've had all that training.)

    If, say, 1 in 10 people study science at university, 1 in 10 of those study for a PhD, 1 in 10 of those study for a professorship, that makes a professor very much a rarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    I believe the average person in DnD has 3d6 stats. So you want to start with this: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tec...dice_rolls.htm .

    One implication of the 3d6 assumption is that "extraordinary" ability scores aren't that extraordinary.
    Problem with that is, in 3.0 and 3.5, most NPCs don't roll stats, but get an array, such as the standard array, or the elite array.

    "Rolling them up" is the exception now, rather than the rule.

    Implying that the vast majority of bad stats, are no worse than 8.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-29 at 08:42 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Few people are professors but then few try

    There are plenty of iq150 plumbers

    Nobody is 4th level so no stat boosts
    On Earth aging gives an int penalty

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    "Nobody is 4th level"- where's that come from?

    D&D NPCs, even ones who never, or almost never fight, seem to go up to pretty high level, 10 or more.

    I see a university student as a 1st level expert, a PhD student as a 5th level expert, an "average professor" as a 10th level expert, and the rare big-name scientists, as maybe about 15th level or so.

    Similarly, we don't know that aging gives an Int penalty big enough to matter.

    As to "plenty of IQ 150 plumbers" what is the source for this, and how many is "plenty"?

    The point about few trying, is few are talented enough to try, and most are aware of this.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-01-29 at 09:02 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    I believe the average person in DnD has 3d6 stats. So you want to start with this: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tec...dice_rolls.htm .

    One implication of the 3d6 assumption is that "extraordinary" ability scores aren't that extraordinary.
    Also, nowadays extraordinarity of PCs is usually accomplished with "4d6, drop the worst die", giving them a higher average. Arrays are a tool to simplify DM's task, and they're still based around the average of 3d6 roll, so working with the basis that people in D&D land are random isn't unjustified.

    To the above poster Riffington: Why do you think no-one is lvl 4 in our world?

    PS: Thank you for posting those delicious propabilities. Now I don't need to count them again.
    Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2010-01-29 at 09:09 AM.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Those who can do.
    Those who cannot, teach
    It's a mistake to think that those who lack interest in the ivory tower are dumb
    They just have different priorities.
    Don't you know some profs dumber than you?
    If you have level above 3 you can not die from a knife crit
    Last edited by Riffington; 2010-01-29 at 09:29 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Nobody is 4th level"- where's that come from?
    ...Reality?
    Get Chaosium's Basic RolePlaying Quick-Start FREE from BRP Central!

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    If you have level above 3 you can not die from a knife crit
    ...an NPC class with average CON can legitimately have 1 HP per level. It's even encouraged. So even at level 5, an ordinary Joe stabbing you has a very real chance of sending you to negatives and bleeding to death. Besides, hitpoints aren't just health anyway.

    On the other side of the spectrum, reality has people falling from mile high and crashing an airplane to a mountainside and having a block of iron shot trough their head... and still living to tell about it.

    So you'll need a better argument than just hitpoints.
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    A level in expert gives 6 or 8 ranks as much knowledge as two professions ie law school with 4 years practice plus another such trade

    A level in warrior gives overall accuracy better toughness sufficient horsemanship to ride into battle in platemail ability to run in plate competent swordsmanship competent archery polearms training knife fighting etc etc

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    Those who can do.
    Those who cannot, teach
    It's a mistake to think that those who lack interest in the ivory tower are dumb
    They just have different priorities.
    Don't you know some profs dumber than you?
    That's probably why he said average professor.

    The average professor is reasonably intelligent. They have to be. This does not presuppose other mental attributes like, say, charisma, but your anti-intellectualism has little ground here.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Objective(ish) measures for stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That's probably why he said average professor.

    The average professor is reasonably intelligent. They have to be. This does not presuppose other mental attributes like, say, charisma, but your anti-intellectualism has little ground here.
    I'm hardly antiintellectual. I'm anti assuming nonacademics are dumb.
    But if you have iq 130 as some of you do you probably know as many professors you know are dumber than you as you know smarter than you

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •