What's the point of Blood-Lines

[Dr.Epic]

Seriously, in Unearthed Arcana, I don't see the appeal in not gaining a level (thus losing potential hit points, skill points, increased saves, increased BAB, and other features) just so you can get a bonus to a skill, ability score, or other minor character ability. Can someone explain why these things are helpful?

[Mongoose87]

Well, you do get to add to every class you have.

[Mystic Muse]

two words

character concept

[Kallisti]

In before Hellfire Warlock abuse.

[Pyro_Azer]

Well, you do get to add to every class you have.

Including (possibly) going higher in a classes ability progressions than the class itself would allow.

[9mm]

Cheeze, glorious, glorious, limburger cheeze.

[Glimbur]

It's like LA you acquire piecemeal. If they hadn't been invented by WotC, and were posted in the homebrew forum here, I would ask what the homebrewer was thinking, and suggest a PrC instead. That way, you get special abilities, but also hit dice and saves and such. Make it so that you can't take all the levels in the PrC one after the other and you're set.

Or just make a racial class for a descendant of a bloodline to take 1-20+. That would... be somewhat different, and require lots of homebrewing.

[Dr.Epic]

two words

character concept

So anti-powergaming?

[Mystic Muse]

So anti-powergaming?

you could call it that yes.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The point of bloodlines is the same as the point of the vampire's listed LA. Nothing at all. They're only useful for anti-powergaming (Stormwind Fallacy lol?) and over-powergaming (poorly worded clause about improving levels)

[Mushroom Ninja]

So anti-powergaming?

Actually, though I'll admit that I'm no expert on bloodlines, I've always heard that they are a bit on the overpowered side.

[Demons_eye]

Take Warblade 3/Swordsage 3/Crusdaer 3/Bloodline 3. You are now effectively a Warblade 6/Swordsage 6/Crusdaer 6 with 9 class levels and 3 LA.

[term1nally s1ck]

ANY level in a bloodline advances any classes' per-level abiliities. Such as, say, the hellfire warlock's boost to eldritch blast, or pretty much any standard class ability. Take say 3-4 classes with such abilities (ALL the precision damage abilities, among others, and then stack a few levels of bloodline on.

EDIT: Such as ToB, for example...damn shadow hand ninjas...

[Dr.Epic]

ANY level in a bloodline advances any classes' per-level abiliities. Such as, say, the hellfire warlock's boost to eldritch blast, or pretty much any standard class ability. Take say 3-4 classes with such abilities (ALL the precision damage abilities, among others, and then stack a few levels of bloodline on.

EDIT: Such as ToB, for example...damn shadow hand ninjas...

Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

[Mongoose87]

Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

Did you not see the part where you could get maneuvers as three classes at once? What more can you ask for(except spellcasting)?

[Thrawn183]

You might also pick up a feat along the way. Frankly, I only really look at the major bloodlines, but they're really cool.

It also helps with dead levels.

[FishAreWet]

Bloodlines are how you get quadruple 9s.

Bloodlines are one of the most broken(and complicated) systems in the game. Don't allow them unless your players don't optimize.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

...Who cares about three levels' worth of HP and skill points? Or three levels of BaB? Even if you're a full 1/1 BaB class, that's not much of a loss.

Instead, you gain extra uses or boosted power for class abilities that scale with level. In every class you have. So a Rogue 3/Ninja 3/Spellthief 3/Bloodline 3, for instance, will deal +8d6 damage per attack to a flatfooted opponent. At ECL 12, when a Rogue would normally only be doing 6d6, and a Rogue 4/Ninja 4/Spellthief 4 would only be doing 5d6.

It gets even more ridiculous with, say, martial maneuvers.

[Dr.Epic]

...Who cares about three levels' worth of HP and skill points? Or three levels of BaB? Even if you're a full 1/1 BaB class, that's not much of a loss.

Instead, you gain extra uses or boosted power for class abilities that scale with level. In every class you have. So a Rogue 3/Ninja 3/Spellthief 3/Bloodline 3, for instance, will deal +8d6 damage per attack to a flatfooted opponent. At ECL 12, when a Rogue would normally only be doing 6d6, and a Rogue 4/Ninja 4/Spellthief 4 would only be doing 5d6.

It gets even more ridiculous with, say, martial maneuvers.

Okay, I can see an advantage, but I still think they're silly and doubt I'll ever play one.

[Yuki Akuma]

They are silly. But there is a point - overt power abuse.

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah but you gain nothing else from the class:

You gain no HP.
You gain no skill points.
You gain no increase to BAB or saves if you were going to.
You gain none of the class features you would have gotten.

Instead all you get is like an ability boost, or skill boost, or +2 to diplomacy and bluff when talking to a member of your bloodline. I admit those would be so bad but the xp penalty for not talking a level in bloodline seems like something that's gonna mess you up at some point.

You do gain a lot of the class features for a lot of classes. Anything with a fixed progression apart from spellcasting progresses normally.

Oh, and the main line you're missing? 'Levels in Bloodline don't increase your character level like class levels do'

Your ECL is the same, your XP to next level is the same, and you gain XP faster if the rest of your party took class levels.

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, so ECL works as normal but not XP.

[Sinfire Titan]

The other option is to use the Titan's Major Bloodline and wield a Gargantuan weapon as a Halfling.

[Dr.Epic]

You do gain a lot of the class features for a lot of classes. Anything with a fixed progression apart from spellcasting progresses normally.

Oh, and the main line you're missing? 'Levels in Bloodline don't increase your character level like class levels do'

Your ECL is the same, your XP to next level is the same, and you gain XP faster if the rest of your party took class levels.

First I already posted that I now see how bloodlines have some advantages.

Second while you would gain more xp being lower level, you're still lower level and once you do reach their level your going to get the amount of xp they get and be farther from leveling up. It's not like you could ever catch up to the rest of the party unless they all die and get res'd or you find a way to get serious xp for just yourself.

edit:

The other option is to use the Titan's Major Bloodline and wield a Gargantuan weapon as a Halfling.

Please explain. My brain temporarily exploded when I heard this.

[Kobold-Bard]

Please explain. My brain temporarily exploded when I heard this.

Titan's can specifically use Gargantuan hammers. Take the Major Titan bloodline and you gain this ability at level 12, regardless of your base race.

Be a Pixie for extra lulz.

[Flickerdart]

Titan's can specifically use Gargantuan hammers. Take the Major Titan bloodline and you gain this ability at level 12, regardless of your base race.

Be a Pixie for extra lulz.

Or a Jermlaine for bonus extra lulz.

[Starbuck_II]

With Monkey Grip can you wield colossal at level 12?

[Flickerdart]

With Monkey Grip can you wield colossal at level 12?

Nope, because the bloodline doesn't care what size you count as. You just get the Titan ability:

Oversized Weapon (Ex)

A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.

[Lamech]

Everyone seems to be forgetting something important. The minimum levels refer to character level and since

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level

I also note that one can take those bloodline levels as early as they want so one could make a swordsage 1/warblade 1/crusader 1/bloodline three. In fact there is no limit to the number of bloodline levels you can take.

Also what are the rules for calculating fractional bab? Could we apply bloodlines to that for extra stupidity?

[imperialspectre]

Yes, bloodlines are for cheating.

The idea that they're there to provide help for "character concepts" is fairly silly; practically nothing in Unearthed Arcana is mechanically suited for that as opposed to giving you new tricks on your way to "Power! Unlimited POWWWWEEEEERRRRRR!!!"