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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    I've been working on tweaking a character concept for a while for a 30th level game that I will be playing in soon that has been giving me a minor problem. The character is built using the Ultimate Magus PrC out of Complete Mage, and the goal is to get, in 30 levels, Sorc 20/Wiz 20 spells per day and spells known. I have come damn close so far, but the current incarnation of the build is sitting pretty at Sorc 19/Wiz 21. This seems to be a function of the fact that I need to have Wiz 17 by 20th level to qualify for the feats I want in my 10 epic levels.

    There are a few restrictions on the build that I should mention. Firstly, the character is designed to be pulling its punches to a certain degree. I could be pulling off ridiculous combos with Polar Ray, Twin, Repeat, and Split Ray metamagic, but both I and my DM realize this will just make the game less fun for me and everyone else involved. So, the feat selection is fixed except for suggestions on how to distribute feats at epic levels or possible epic level alternatives. Secondly, I am not allowed to use Uncanny Trickster to continue the trick that Legacy Champion is there for, specifically to advance the Ultimate Magus progression a bit more for extra caster level on both sides.

    Thirdly, I understand that Incantatrix is borked in half. My DM and I have agreed that it is there mostly for the Improved Metamagic and less stinky uses of Instant Metamagic. I am not persisting Shapechange or similar nonsense. The other reason it is being allowed is that it fits the character concept very well, which is an arcanist whose primary pursuit is a style of magic which seamlessly blends metamagic, prepared spellcasting, and spontaneous spellcasting.

    Without further ado, I present the build. Adj CL is Spells Known level + Arcane Spell Power and Practiced Spellcaster where applicable. The bonus Legacy feats are not included because they're pretty unimportant overall:

    Spoiler
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    {TABLE="head"]Level|Class|Sorcerer CL|Wizard CL|Adj Sorc CL|Adj Wiz CL|Feat
    1|Sorcerer|1|-|1|-|Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer), Maximize Spell
    2|Wizard|1|1|2|1|
    3|Wizard|1|2|3|2|Quicken Spell
    4|Wizard|1|3|4|3|
    5|Wizard|1|4|5|4|
    6|Ultimate Magus|1|5|6|6|Twin Spell
    7|Ultimate Magus|2|6|7|7|
    8|Ultimate Magus|3|7|8|8|
    9|Ultimate Magus|4|7|10|9|Iron Will
    10|Ultimate Magus|5|8|11|10|
    11|Ultimate Magus|6|9|12|11|
    12|Ultimate Magus|6|10|13|17|Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
    13|Ultimate Magus|7|11|14|19|
    14|Ultimate Magus|8|12|15|20|Energy Substitution (sonic)
    15|Ultimate Magus|9|13|17|21|Improved Toughness
    16|Incantatrix|10|13|18|21|Empower Spell
    17|Incantatrix|10|14|18|22|
    18|Incantatrix|10|15|18|23|Arcane Thesis
    19|Incantatrix|10|16|18|24|Extend Spell
    20|Incantatrix|10|17|18|25|
    21|Incantatrix|11|17|19|25|Improved Spell Capacity (10th)
    22|Incantatrix|12|17|20|25|Empower Spell
    23|Incantatrix|13|17|21|25|
    24|Incantatrix|14|17|22|25|Improved Spell Capacity (11th)
    25|Incantatrix|15|17|23|25|Enhance Spell
    26|Legacy Champion|15|17|23|25|
    27|Legacy Champion|16|18|24|26|Improved Metamagic
    28|Legacy Champion|17|19|25|27|
    29|Legacy Champion|18|20|26|28|
    30|Legacy Champion|19|21|27|29|Improved Metamagic[/TABLE]


    To sum up my questions:

    1) Is there a way to smooth this out into Sor 20/Wiz 20 spells known and per day?
    2) Other suggestions for playing a character of this nature?
    Last edited by TaintedLight; 2010-01-30 at 05:37 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Dropping a few more levels of Incantatrix for more Legacy Champion sounds like a good idea to me - you have nothing to lose.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Take the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, it will allow you to spend two Sorcerer spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you know of one level higher. That includes any Wizard spells that you've read and made the Spellcraft check to understand, but not copied into your spellbook. You could even say that by now you've read every spell in the game and as long as you could make the Spellcraft check for each, the entire Sorcerer/Wizard class list is at your disposal.

    You could make the character a Kobold and use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to make it Sorcerer 20/Wizard 21. I'd actually go Beguiler/Wizard instead, and take Able Learner to keep up your Beguiler class skills without having to pay cross-class price. Both use Int-based spellcasting so you could dump Cha, and don't really worry about them being at 19/21. Versatile Spellcaster will work with that just as well, so your spell selection will be just as big. Also remember that if you've read and understand a spell, you can use Secret Page to put it into your spellbook any time you want. Keep a few spellbooks on hand filled with a 1st level spell on each page, and Secret Page can turn one of those spells into any other spell you know and it will still take only one page regardless of its level. That way losing your spellbook won't be so career-ending.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    If the DM didn't banned Epic Spellcasting, take it.

    You can enter Ultimate Magus with only Wizard (spontaneous diviner ACF or other methods) or sorcerer (arcane preparation).

    I recomend for you to enter Ultimate Magus with wizard, them go Incantatrix No persistend shenanigans? Them go Sorcerer, trade familiar for Metamagic Focus. I don't think you need Legacy Champion, if it's BAB what you need, take Abjurant Champion. You can also become an Mage of Arcane Order instead of Ultimate Magus for versatility.

    Build Option
    Spoiler
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    Wizard 1- Iron Will, Scrible Scroll [Bonus]
    Wizard 2-
    Wizard 3- Alacrious Cogitation
    Wizard 4-
    Wizard 5- Extend Spell [Bonus]
    Ultimate Magus 1- Combat Casting
    Ultimate Magus 2
    Ultimate Magus 3
    Ultimate Magus 4- Empower Spell
    Ultimate Magus 5- Quicken Spell [Bonus]
    Ultimate Magus 6
    Ultimate Magus 7- Energy Substitution (sonic)
    Ultimate Magus 8
    Ultimate Magus 9- Twin Spell [Bonus]
    Ultimate Magus 10- Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)
    Abjurant Champion 1
    Abjurant Champion 2
    Abjurant Champion 3- Still Spell
    Abjurant Champion 4
    Abjurant Champion 5
    Incantatrix 1- Silent Spell [Bonus], Improved Spell Capacity (Epic) (10th)
    Incantatrix 2
    Incantatrix 3
    Incantatrix 4- Maximize Spell [Bonus], Multispell (Epic)
    Incantatrix 5
    Incantatrix 6
    Incantatrix 7- Repeat Spell [Bonus], Improved Metamagic (Epic)
    Incantatrix 8
    Incantatrix 9
    Incantatrix 10- Heighten Spell [Bonus], Multispell (Epic)

    This way you have 5 points of BAB higher and you are going Incantatrix for the bonus feats anyway.

    You have wizard CL 30 (base) + 4 (ultimate magus) [+2 (thesis spell) +1 Ion stone + 4 bead of karma + 1 spell]

    In times of touble you can cast a stilled, silenced, quickened, extended protective buff with negligible spellcraft DC.

    You can also throw Twinned (+1) Repeat (+0) Empowered (+0) Maximised (+0) Sonic (-1) Stilled (+0) Silenced (+0) Quickened (+1) Orbs of Fire and deal +, for a total level adjustment of +1 making this a 5th level spell, and you can use your higher level slots for this thanks to heighten spell.

    I don't know how much the cap from enhance spell works, but even assuming the mininum, you are going to onshot anything without sonic immunity. EVEN IF the bastard survives, you can throw three of these each round thanks to multispell and also thanks to repeat spell make that three of each for two rounds.



    *casts protection from ninja*

    Edit: Ultimate Magus need arcane prepared spells from spellbook. Go Wizard with Alacrious Cogitation Instead.
    Last edited by Arakune; 2010-01-30 at 08:23 AM.

    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    You're in epic, and Ultimate Magus is a full 10 level PrC. Forget Legacy Champion, you can legally take more actual levels in Ultimate Magus. Replace Legacy Champion with 5 more levels of UM, and the dead level at Legacy Champion 1 disappears, getting your Sorcerer casting up to 20 and incidentally boosting your Wizard casting to 22.

    Epic levels of Ultimate Magus should also be giving you epic bonus feats. There's no official epic progression for UM so you'll have to work one out with your DM, but one bonus feat every four, maybe five, levels seems about right to me, with access to both the wizard and sorcerer epic bonus feat lists. That would give you one extra epic feat, gained at level 29 or 30.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-01-30 at 09:49 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Ozgun- I want the tenth level of Incantatrix specifically for Improved Metamagic. That allows me to quicken/twin spells at +1 instead of +2 slot adjustment, which is huge.

    Biff- Unfortunately, my DM already no'd that feat for this character for reasons such as you have already proposed. Also, the character needs to be human for story reasons.

    Arakune- I have seen the tricks that allow entry from one class, but that directly violates the pulling-of-punches philosophy.

    douglas- I tried to convice my DM to let me, but he just said it would be too much. Why he is allowing me to do it with LC I have no idea...

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Quote Originally Posted by TaintedLight View Post
    douglas- I tried to convice my DM to let me, but he just said it would be too much. Why he is allowing me to do it with LC I have no idea...
    Er, huh? That makes no sense. It's a rather arbitrary point to draw the line, costs you a mere one level of UM progression, and is quite definitely a house rule. The Epic Level Handbook is quite explicitly clear that any PrC with at least 10 levels has an epic continuation, which continues existing class features and grants epic bonus feats, typically at one every three levels, slower for classes with really strong continuing class features. Technically that progression is what Legacy Champion is getting you anyway, just one level late. In fact, it should even be getting you Epic UM's epic bonus feats. At either 3 or 4 level intervals, that's still one epic bonus feat you should be getting, even with using Legacy Champion.

    Banning Incantatrix entirely would make more sense and be a bigger nerf than banning Epic UM.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mongoose87's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Disallowing an Epic UM progression is essentially declaring that that class will not be allowed to be viable for high levels.
    Last edited by Mongoose87; 2010-01-30 at 10:11 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Human Bard 2 (with Able Learner feat)/ Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 1/ Spellthief 1 (with Master Spellthief feat)/ Incantatrix 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Incantatrix 8
    It sort of works. 4th through 9th level sorcerer/bard Spells, 9th level wizard spells, 1st level bard spells, casting in light armor, and one hell of a CL.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    What book is Incantrix located in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    DM: "And now you descend into the mazelike tunnels, where no light save for what magic you bring will illuminate your path, as you search for-"
    Player: "I'm preparing Teleport twice each day."
    DM: "...and there goes the tension by the window"

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    I Am A: Lawful Good Human Ranger (3rd Level)
    Ability Scores
    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 18
    Constitution: 16
    Intelligence: 16
    Wisdom: 16
    Charisma: 14

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Os1ris09 View Post
    What book is Incantrix located in?
    Player's Guide to Faerun. It gives free metamagic on your spells based off of spellcraft checks, free metamagic on other's spells based off of spellcraft checks, the ability to steal other people's spells, lots of bonus metamagic feats, and -1 to the cost of all metamagics. It's basically one of the top 6 PrCs in the entire game.
    [/sarcasm]
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    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: [3.5]Epic Character Build Help

    So, I finally managed to smooth everything out just the way I wanted it. It turns out there were some problems with my build order before, but that has since been fixed. I had to drop Arcane Thesis since my DM decided a single 11th level slot doing 2400 damage as a free action was a bit too much :p. The thing that I'm still toying with is what to do with the last few bonus MM feats I get for Incantatrix. Any suggestions?

    Spoiler
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    {table=head]Level|Class|Sorcerer CL|Wizard CL|Adj Sor CL|Adj Wiz CL|Feat
    1|Sorcerer|1|-|1|-|Practiced Spellcaster (Sor), Maximize Spell
    2|Wizard|1|1|2|1||
    3|Wizard|1|2|3|2|Iron Will|
    4|Wizard|1|3|4|3||
    5|Wizard|1|4|5|4||
    6|Ultimate Magus|1|5|6|6|Twin Spell|
    7|Ultimate Magus|2|6|7|7||
    8|Ultimate Magus|3|7|8|8||
    9|Ultimate Magus|3|8|9|10|Improved Toughness|
    10|Ultimate Magus|4|9|10|11|Empower Spell
    11|Ultimate Magus|5|10|11|12
    12|Ultimate Magus|6|10|13|13|Energy Substitution (sonic)
    13|Ultimate Magus|7|11|14|14
    14|Ultimate Magus|8|12|15|15|Persistent Spell
    15|Ultimate Magus|9|13|17|17|Practiced Spellcaster (Wiz)
    16|Legacy Champion|9|13|17|21
    17|Legacy Champion|10|14|18|22
    18|Legacy Champion|11|15|19|23|Split Ray Spell
    19|Incantatrix|11|16|19|24|Energy Substitution Acid
    20|Incantatrix|11|19|19|25
    21|Legacy Champion|12|18|20|26|Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Epic Legacy
    22|Legacy Champion|13|19|21|27
    23|Incantatrix|13|20|21|28
    24|Incantatrix|14|20|22|28|Improved Spell Capacity (11th)
    25|Incantatrix|15|20|23|28
    26|Incantatrix|16|20|24|28
    27|Incantatrix|17|20|25|28|Improved Metamagic, Split Ray Spell
    28|Incantatrix|18|20|26|28
    29|Incantatrix|19|20|27|28
    30|Incantatrix|20|20|28|28|Improved Metamagic, <bonus MM feat>
    [/table]

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