A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    A pie factory.
    Gender
    Male

    Default [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    I just recently learned of this race's existence. For those of you wondering, the Dvati are a LA+1 race from the Dragon Compendium that lets you play as a pair of identical twins.

    I'm... having trouble wrapping my mind around this. They share spells, initiative, a single soul... Only one of them can cast a spell at a time, they get extra bonuses for flanking enemies, and they can telepathically communicate between each other over any distance (and even across planar boundaries).

    Have other people used Dvati in their games? Does anyone have experience playing a pair? They strike me as interesting, but risky: each twin has roughly half the hp of a normal character, and if one of them dies, the surviving twin slowly dies and goes insane as well.

    What would be a good build for them? A pair of flank-happy rogues? A bardic duo (their favored class)? The restrictions upon their casting ability seem to make them poor dedicated casters, but I could be wrong.

    What sort of tricks could one play with a pair of Dvati? I'm having trouble thinking of the possibilities, so alien is the concept to me. What are people's thoughts on them, or the concept of playing a pair of identical twins in general?

    More thoughts:

    This race must wreak havoc on the Wealth by Level guidelines, especially for a more martially inclined character. You'd either have to split the gold and treasure you receive between your twins, or have the DM increase the treasure available...
    Last edited by CockroachTeaParty; 2010-02-01 at 05:09 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty View Post
    I just recently learned of this race's existence. For those of you wondering, the Dvati are a LA+1 race from the Dragon Compendium that lets you play as a pair of identical twins.

    I'm... having trouble wrapping my mind around this. They share spells, initiative, a single soul... Only one of them can cast a spell at a time, they get extra bonuses for flanking enemies, and they can telepathically communicate between each other over any distance (and even across planar boundaries).

    Have other people used Dvati in their games? Does anyone have experience playing a pair? They strike me as interesting, but risky: each twin has roughly half the hp of a normal character, and if one of them dies, the surviving twin slowly dies and goes insane as well.

    What would be a good build for them? A pair of flank-happy rogues? A bardic duo (their favored class)? The restrictions upon their casting ability seem to make them poor dedicated casters, but I could be wrong.

    What sort of tricks could one play with a pair of Dvati? I'm having trouble thinking of the possibilities, so alien is the concept to me. What are people's thoughts on them, or the concept of playing a pair of identical twins in general?

    More thoughts:

    This race must wreak havoc on the Wealth by Level guidelines, especially for a more martially inclined character. You'd either have to split the gold and treasure you receive between your twins, or have the DM increase the treasure available...
    Duskblade + Arcane Strike?

    You can only cast 1/rd, but nothing about nothing about expending a spell slot for Arcane strike.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    d13's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    You could cause some damage with spells with Duration: Concentration, having one twin hold concentration on a current spell, and keep the other one casting.

    Claymore Manga spoiler:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Sort of Alicia and Beth. One concentrates in keeping the other's mind sane, while the first one awakens on purpose.
    Last edited by d13; 2010-02-01 at 05:35 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I'll have a signature one day...


    Thanks Mr. Saturn for the awesome Pokeatar

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Yes, I'm the big Dvati dude around these parts and I'm here to tell you that, as written, they are NIGH USELESS mechanically. They share actions, so between them, a Dvati character gets 1 full-round worth of actions each turn. This means that they can either both move or 1 moves and 1 uses a standard (unless it's a spell, meaning the other stands there like a lump and doesn't do squat).

    I highly recommend you petition your DM to let you rewrite their action rules to not complete shaft you. I mean, you get half+con hp on each one, if either dies you're basically screwed, you get half WBL, AND you can't take more than 1 round of actions? For LA +1??? That's practically a CRIME.

    My suggestion to you is this: keep everything, but change it so that dvati can take up to 2 moves and 1 standard, or 2 standard actions a round. Only 1 may be a spell, but moving during spell casting does not auto-lose the spell. This makes all your other disadvantages almost worth it.

    As written, I recommend you play a Bard, just because then you can just take a standard action each round and do nothing but support. Of course, you can't maintain Bardic Music while you cast spells, since ANY action (even a free one), breaks spellcasting. I want to slaughter whoever wrote the race, since it's awesome thematically.

    With the change I suggested above, well, basically everything opens up. Don't play a Meleer though, your HP is pathetically light.

    EDIT: d13, that doesn't work. ANY action breaks the new spell.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-02-01 at 05:36 PM.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Reaper_Monkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    No, that other place
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    I cant really comment on the fun of playing them as written, as I took one look at the rules and threw em out the window. Seriously, their fluff is awesome and alluring for RP heavy fun... but the crunch make them unplayable on almost every front, they're either painfully crippled, or dangerously overpowered.

    If I were you, I'd ask your DM to chuck the rules and replace them with something more playable. The simplest edit is a racial feature that allows communication with their birth twin and the inability to live when you twin dies. Then just make it as you would any other race and have any player using them play two characters instead of one.

    Otherwise there are many issues which have to be dealt with, namely:
    • Loot calculation and distribution: Do you count as one character or two? Does your party think of them as one person or two?
    • XP calculations: Same as above but mostly becomes an issue when the twins are separated significantly.
    • Shared debuff effects: My standard rules this is overly complex and convoluted, it gets no easier when doing it yourself. Also, what happens if one twin is asleep and the other isn't? What happens if one twin never sleeps??
    • Saves and Skill checks: Do both get a save if things are targeting both of them? What if its only targeting one of them? Do both get a chance at failure of a use once skill check or just the first one to attempt it?


    There are many many more, but most are also RP based or logic based, ie, muscle memory vs knowledge and the like, but those apply regardless of the backing mechanics.

    Whatever you do, I hope you get something you're happy with playing with, they're a very cool race (its just a pitty they suck a fair amount when it comes to actually trying to play them).
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    "You live and learn. At any rate, you live."

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    d13's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    EDIT: d13, that doesn't work. ANY action breaks the new spell.
    Well... Crap.

    Never seen a Dvati before (don't have the Compendium), but a pair of Dvati summoners looked like would be worth the LA
    Last edited by d13; 2010-02-01 at 05:49 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I'll have a signature one day...


    Thanks Mr. Saturn for the awesome Pokeatar

  7. - Top - End - #7

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Yes, I'm the big Dvati dude around these parts and I'm here to tell you that, as written, they are NIGH USELESS mechanically. They share actions, so between them, a Dvati character gets 1 full-round worth of actions each turn. This means that they can either both move or 1 moves and 1 uses a standard (unless it's a spell, meaning the other stands there like a lump and doesn't do squat).

    I highly recommend you petition your DM to let you rewrite their action rules to not complete shaft you. I mean, you get half+con hp on each one, if either dies you're basically screwed, you get half WBL, AND you can't take more than 1 round of actions? For LA +1??? That's practically a CRIME.
    Actualy, from what I understood, both dvatis get full round actions each turn, but still only one spell per turn.

    What you share is expendable resources.

    So it's actualy pretty good for melee builds, allowing you for two full attacks. Focus on agile characters to make up for the lack of Con.

    EDIT:Notice how one twin can use the aid action to help the other twin. That's two standard actions right there!
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-02-01 at 06:12 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Wabbajack's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    On a bust of pallas.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Keep in mind that the whole "share actions" is errata, and they only need to cast a spell together according to the Compendium.

    One way would be to just not tell the DM about the errata...
    Avatar by Serpentine.

    "And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
    On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door"
    - Edgar Allan Poe, "The Raven"

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Reaper_Monkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    No, that other place
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Wabbajack View Post
    Keep in mind that the whole "share actions" is errata
    Keep in mind that the "errata" was not an official errata, and was made on a forum by a different designer who just happened to make something else in the same Dragon edition. It is by no means needed to be used, and is by no means an improvement or fairer or in any way a sensible change to be made. If you use this so called "errata" I will get a large heavy axe, name it 'errata', and come to you house to teach you a new houserule where erratas are by no means required to be used in a game...
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    "You live and learn. At any rate, you live."

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Actualy, from what I understood, both dvatis get full round actions each turn, but still only one spell per turn.

    What you share is expendable resources.

    So it's actualy pretty good for melee builds, allowing you for two full attacks. Focus on agile characters to make up for the lack of Con.

    EDIT:Notice how one twin can use the aid action to help the other twin. That's two standard actions right there!
    It was clarified by a post from the designer on the Paizo forums, since the text is UTTERLY unclear. It's not errata, since Dragon doesn't issue errata, but it IS the intended design, and it makes them unusable.

    Here's a guy who quotes Mike McArtor about the Dvati, and makes it ABUNDANDLY clear what actions they are intended to get. Since the text basically makes you guess at it, this is about as official as it gets.

    Between you and me, I obviously wish it wasn't the case (and it shouldn't be dammit).

    EDIT: Indeed, it's not actual errata, but it's the only clarification on how they were intended to function. I don't agree with it, but a stickler DM might. Thus, my suggestions above on how to grant them actions, since two complete rounds is a bit much honestly.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-02-01 at 06:28 PM.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    EDIT: Indeed, it's not actual errata, but it's the only clarification on how they were intended to function. I don't agree with it, but a stickler DM might. Thus, my suggestions above on how to grant them actions, since two complete rounds is a bit much honestly.
    Let's check the basic facts again, shall we?
    -It's not an official errata.
    -Two fullround actions per turn is very far from broken when you have +1LA eating class levels, half WBL, low hp and can still only cast 1 spell per round.
    -That "sugestion" from a random designer, as you pointed out, makes the race plain unplayable.


    So, really, why do you keep insisting? It's this kind of thing that gives bad name to D&D! You're trying to enforce an interpretation NOBODY would enjoy just because someone said it should be so!

    That, or you're a NONCASTERS CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS! supporter. Any caster can get dual actions per turn with quickened magic. Why can't a martial dude get some fun as well?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Wooooooow, Oslecamo, you are really not getting what I'm saying at all.

    Yes, every single fact you listed is either true, or has basis in truth. No, I do not disagree at all. No, I am not a supporter of "melee can't have nice things". The Dvati are my favorite race printed in any source, official or not. And, I posted a reasonably balanced interpretation of the action rules in my VERY FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.

    That all stated, the reason I brought it up and continue to mention it is because the actual rules are unclear, meaning that all RAW can rely on is the designer's stated intent. That is all I have been saying. I have not ONCE ever said that I agree with that intent nor that anyone else should. So, will you lay off please? I'm happy to let this lie, now that we've aired it and I've explained my actions (even though I shouldn't have had to do so this many times).

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    It was clarified by a post from the designer on the Paizo forums, since the text is UTTERLY unclear. It's not errata, since Dragon doesn't issue errata, but it IS the intended design, and it makes them unusable.

    Here's a guy who quotes Mike McArtor about the Dvati, and makes it ABUNDANDLY clear what actions they are intended to get. Since the text basically makes you guess at it, this is about as official as it gets.

    Between you and me, I obviously wish it wasn't the case (and it shouldn't be dammit).

    EDIT: Indeed, it's not actual errata, but it's the only clarification on how they were intended to function. I don't agree with it, but a stickler DM might. Thus, my suggestions above on how to grant them actions, since two complete rounds is a bit much honestly.
    As it stands:
    --One move action (but both can move, and quite probably on different locations)
    --One standard action (so either one attacks or the other attacks)
    --One swift action
    --Several free actions
    --One readied action

    The only thing that makes unplayable is the idea of Aid Another, since they can't aid one another (that's one action). They can flank between themselves, tho (still uncertain and probably won't be in that case).

    Now, I understand it kills the concept of "one mind, two bodies" since you can't get more than one attack from them (only the odd instance in which both bodies do a beating between themselves and applying flank bonuses.

    The main concept was that a Dvati would count as one character for mostly mental actions or primarily mental actions (such as talking, psionics, spells, mind-affecting abilities, etc), but as two for purposes of physical actions or effects (attacking, moving, taking damage, aiding one another or flanking between themselves, etc.) It's at least the clearest concept based from RAW, which was mostly shot down by the extraofficial "errata".

    Heck, couldn't they at least do like other games do and share the pool of attacks? Such as: one Dvati pair of martial warriors splits their pool of extra attacks through iteratives + any extra attack ability between two creatures. They would have to split the iteratives, but Haste would treat them as separate creatures (much as they apply Con bonuses separately and not as part of the pool).

    Alas, it's either running it as Dragon Compendium intends, or as that malformed "errata" suggests.
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Dvati warblades with white raven tactics?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    A pie factory.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Wow, I didn't realize how crappy they are by that logic.

    Hmm... I understand the desire to keep them from casting two spells at once, and I think arguskos' suggestion of 2 moves 1 standard // 2 standards, etc., is a decent step in the right direction.

    To add further confusion:

    How would Dvati work with a system such as Incarnum? Would they share an essentia pool? Would they have to split their soulmelds between them? What about the swift action to reallocate essentia? What of chakra binds? @[email protected]

    What about binding vestiges? Using supernatural or spell-like abilities (warlock and factotum come to mind)?

    If you really want to get into some spell-sharing confusion, could both twins have a familiar? An animal companion? Two dvati druids could conceivably have a small menagerie of creatures following them...

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Dvati are treated as one character for all purposes, save for splitting hp, gear, and active spells. So no, they only get 1 familiar, they get one essentia pool, they probably have one shared set of chakra (since it binds to your essence, not your body), one bound vestige (or however many your EBL says you can bind), etc. They just have two bodies, meaning gear splits, hp splits, and active spells are only on one or the other.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Darrin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    That all stated, the reason I brought it up and continue to mention it is because the actual rules are unclear, meaning that all RAW can rely on is the designer's stated intent.
    I think it's important to point out that Mike McArtor is not the designer. He's the associate editor that may or may not have had some input in updating the Dvati to 3rd edition. If you really want to go by the designer's intent, then you should probably ask Talon Dunning. He has a 2nd edition article on them available here, although unfortunately it doesn't clarify the actions per round issue.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty View Post
    To add further confusion:

    How would Dvati work with a system such as Incarnum? Would they share an essentia pool? Would they have to split their soulmelds between them? What about the swift action to reallocate essentia? What of chakra binds? @[email protected]

    What about binding vestiges? Using supernatural or spell-like abilities (warlock and factotum come to mind)?

    If you really want to get into some spell-sharing confusion, could both twins have a familiar? An animal companion? Two dvati druids could conceivably have a small menagerie of creatures following them...
    Since Incarnum works mostly as a surrogate for magic items (a very, very, much too VERY broad concept for it), they'd have a split essentia pool, but the maximum essentia capacity is not split between the two. They could shape one soulmeld per chakra per body, but since they're one soul, they can only bind one of the two. Swift action would be used once, but they can reallocate their essentia between bodies (so one half of the Dvati twins would shift essentia to its partner)

    Vestige-wise, the twins would be treated as one "contractee" for purposes of the binding. They'd both manifest the traits and whatnot, but the active abilities can only be used as if spells (both have to work to use it). It would be unnerving, since the Dvati would manifest the trait exactly at the same time, so you'd see two almost exactly alike people doing the same action at the same time.

    Spell-like abilities obviously behave like spells in regards to activation, and by extension so does supernatural abilities.

    As for animal companions, only one per pair of Dvati twins. No two. Same with familiar: however, you could work out that a familiar tends to act as if it had a partner.

    Then again, you could have a "Dvati-ish" familiar...the female mage in the cover art of Complete Mage has two rats, not one. However, the familiar would effectively act as one creature even if it were a pair. And...just the nerve of being shared by partners would make them perhaps unable to handle familiars, so...DM's choice in this one.
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Why not just make them both Lockdown Crusaders then? They can still use stances and slap on half-minotaur or something and give them a spiked-chain and their good to go.

    Think about it... double reach, double AoO (needs Combat Reflexes), double damage, the extra hit points are gonna be good, the damage pool is good for survival...
    The accuracy of this post is questionable

    The Endless Dungeon


    The Neverending Dungeon
    Spoiler
    Show


    Renewal A fantasy/post-apocalyptic/new world setting WIP

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Broken Damaged Worthless

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I think it's important to point out that Mike McArtor is not the designer. He's the associate editor that may or may not have had some input in updating the Dvati to 3rd edition. If you really want to go by the designer's intent, then you should probably ask Talon Dunning. He has a 2nd edition article on them available here, although unfortunately it doesn't clarify the actions per round issue.
    Fair enough, I misread it obviously. Still the only official clarification, but since no one really uses it, since it's moronically thick, it's no matter.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by lvl 1 sharnian View Post
    Why not just make them both Lockdown Crusaders then? They can still use stances and slap on half-minotaur or something and give them a spiked-chain and their good to go.

    Think about it... double reach, double AoO (needs Combat Reflexes), double damage, the extra hit points are gonna be good, the damage pool is good for survival...
    How that would work:
    --First, the Lockdown Dvati Crusaders would be under the effect of one stance, not of two.
    --It would be two separate beacons: you could place them at different points, but that would only artificially deal with the reach.
    --As you mentioned, the "pool" of Combat Reflexes is split apart.
    --Even if the target enters an area threatened by both Dvati twins, you'd still get one AoO from them. Think of it as a synched attack, but their lack of skill makes them deal such damage so that the full amount of damage is as if a single character had done it. So you don't get 2 attacks, just a single one.
    --One of the main differences is that, in terms of the Dvati, Con is counted twice. That's about the extra HP you get: doesn't seem to be very helpful on that matter.
    --The delayed damage pool is something that will cause some concern. Effectively, the damage pool would be handled separately, but that would imply that the bonuses would be also specific to each Dvati: you wouldn't get a pooled amount of damage, have both characters benefit from the result with Furious Counterstrike, and then both take a divided amount of damage. It would be like...enchanting one weapon with GMW and one with MW. One Dvati half would probably have a higher delayed damage pool, and hence a bigger amount of bonus to attack/defense than the other half.

    So...it's mostly as effective as a Two-Weapon fighter going lockdown and somehow having range, a trip-worthy weapon and extra HP. You need to think well for it in order to be successful with it, otherwise, you're risking a tad too much.
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Hmm that reminds me, how does an effect along the lines of "You must attack the caster of this spell, ignoring the others?"* work when used by both Dvati?

    Would it work like that angel in Magic: The Gathering, where if you had two of them on the field, nothing on your side could be attacked?

    *Heavily paraphrased, but I know there's a spell like that somewhere, but I can't remember
    The accuracy of this post is questionable

    The Endless Dungeon


    The Neverending Dungeon
    Spoiler
    Show


    Renewal A fantasy/post-apocalyptic/new world setting WIP

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Even if the target enters an area threatened by both Dvati twins, you'd still get one AoO from them. Think of it as a synched attack, but their lack of skill makes them deal such damage so that the full amount of damage is as if a single character had done it. So you don't get 2 attacks, just a single one.
    Why won't they trigger AoOs from both dvatis? It would use up 2 AoOs, but you would get 2 attacks...

    Good idea, using non-actions to make up for their lack of actions.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    I have made a Dvati character for a game that didn't get off the ground.

    They were a pair of Ranger 4 / Trickster Spellthief 4 / Cragtop Archer 2 snipers that were going to sit up in the crow's nest of the ship they were stuck on, laying down a withering hail of fire (that provides flanking from Distracting Shot) once they closed with the enemy.

    Just to repeat what others have said: the "errata" ruins an interesting, balanced race. Do not use it, and do not expect your players to use it.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    I was intrigued by the Dvati when I first read them, but the mechnanics of them being twins are not the greatest. At a glance, the only thing they are good at is being flanking Rogues. I was trying to find a way for them to use the Multivoice feat from SS so they could cast two spells per round, but the feat investment was insane. It even involved a dip into Dragon Disciple!

    ...now, even though the LA is pretty horrendous, I'm very interested in the Vestigial Twin trait from DMG2. This does give you an extra action per round.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Dragonfire Adepts are nice. Double the breath weapon and a focus on con means that they're useful and they have a decent amount of HP.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    A Dvati Crusader is practically unkillable. They have identical class levels, and must both use an action to cast spells, but otherwise act as separate creatures in combat. Their dice-based HP are split between the two, but both get their Con bonus to HP as normal. Each would have a separate pool of delayed damage from Crusader, an injured one could full-attack with Stone Power while the other uses Crusader's Strike and both would benefit from Martial Spirit. The character would get twice as many attacks/round and you'd have two bodies to stick in front of squishier characters. It makes for a great cohort, especially in a party lacking frontliners.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    KitsuneKionchi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    I play a Dvati, but my DM has heavily nerfed me. I wanted to try using them with Void Points from Rokugan (adapted for 3.5). Void Points are basically a pool of points you spend to get +2 to any saving throw, attack roll or skill check. You get 2 for having the feat and 3+X for every feat you take afterwards (where X is the number of times you take that "bonus void" feat; note: I'm using the phoenix clan bonus void feat from secrets of the phoenix). I got the +8 req. void feat that gives me tons of rerolls per day (it doesn't cost rerolls if my roll is 5 times higher than the previous roll, so I use it when I roll less than 10 and hope my luck doesn't completely suck). I use some power attack (ladies gambit since high con actually gives me a larger HP pool than the rest of the party if I transfer damage via the shackles from Book of Vile Darkness). And the Way of the Samurai kata that lets me dump all my void points for that many attacks for a round...but that's not till much later.

    He made the following rulings (most of which make me mad...):
    ->You share void point and action point pools.
    ->You cannot target one another with your bodyguard prestige class as "charges" since you are the same character, just in different bodies.
    ->You count as one character for loot, even though your a melee fighter and need double the gear to outfit yourself while the rest of the party are casters.
    ->If one twin gets a template, the other one gets it too. (This issue came up where one got involved in this culty ritual and I wanted only one sister to get the template.)
    ->You can't use void points on knowledge, craft, or any other "long term" skill checks (yeah, not a dvati thing I just wanted to post it).

    However, there are some advantages:
    ->You are the group walkie talkie for when the group splits up.
    ->You get double skill checks.
    ->You get double attacks per round.
    ->You are twins. And therefore the cutest things ever!
    Last edited by KitsuneKionchi; 2010-02-02 at 03:44 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    I haven't played a Dvati, but was talking about them with my DM, and he ruled that they each get a full action, but they're limited to the One Spell + One quickened spell everybody else gets. Other than that, it's all gravy.

    With this set of rulings, I figured it would be fun to play a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger Dvati: They both run round the target in a circle pegging it with arrows. If gestalt were thrown in, the other side would be a Soulknife/Mindbow for even more fun.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

  30. - Top - End - #30

    Default Re: [3.5]Dvati: Playing Twins

    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneKionchi View Post
    He made the following rulings (most of which make me mad...):
    ->You share void point and action point pools.
    Well, that's how it's suposed to work. Void points and action points are both limited resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneKionchi View Post
    ->You cannot target one another with your bodyguard prestige class as "charges" since you are the same character, just in different bodies.
    Altough that would be a fun combo, you can't count yourself as your own ally, or we have White raven tactics madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneKionchi View Post
    ->You count as one character for loot, even though your a melee fighter and need double the gear to outfit yourself while the rest of the party are casters.
    Hmm, make cute eyes to the casters and ask them for buffs and crafted items? The good point of being the only noncaster is that you can hoard all the goody martial buffs!

    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneKionchi View Post
    ->If one twin gets a template, the other one gets it too. (This issue came up where one got involved in this culty ritual and I wanted only one sister to get the template.)
    Meh, twins and stuff. I would say it would be quite off character for one twin to take a life-changing ritual and the other just stand watching. Plus they share buffs and negative levels. A template spilling over isn't that far-fetched.

    Quote Originally Posted by KitsuneKionchi View Post
    However, there are some advantages:
    ->You are the group walkie talkie for when the group splits up.
    ->You get double skill checks.
    ->You get double attacks per round.
    ->You are twins. And therefore the cutest things ever!
    Indeed, those are all cool advantages, that I belive more than make up for the disadvantages.

    Not saying you're wrong or anything, just that the decisions your DM made would be pretty much the decisions I would make if I had a dvati at my table.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •