Dungeon Crasher

[Rasman]

I've heard people talk about the "Dungeon Crasher" build a lot and how it can do some rediculous damage, but no one has ever actually said what the build consists of, other than the fact that it's a fighter build. What feats exactly compose the Dungeon Crasher build and other than saying "you run people into walls" how does it work?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Duneon Crasher is an ACF in Dungeonscape. The point of it is to get as high a bull-rush mod as possible, ensure there's always something available to run someone into, the Bull-Rush the opponent into it repeatedly. I like Raptoran+Ground for that. War Hulk is great for it, too, since it boosts Str and Bull-Rush doesn't need BAB.

[Eldariel]

Well, Dungeoncrasher is an alternative class feature for Fighter in Dungeonscape. It makes you better at breaking stuff, surviving traps and the like in exchange for two feats (2nd and 6th levels). Basically, better at surviving in dungeons. It also enables you to Bull Rush people to walls for massive damage; 4d6+2xStr on level 2 and 8d6+3xStr on level 6.

This combined with ability to fly means there's almost always a wall (the ground) available and then you pick up a feat that allows Bull Rushing people while hitting (e.g. Knockback) and full attack people into ground (with or without some help from things that allow bull rush-as-trip (e.g. Rampaging Bull Rush [RoS]); stands to reason that prone people bull rushed do get slammed to the ground) for literally massive damage.


EDIT: Bloody ninjas, showing their heads where they don't belong. Thought this was a Fighter-thread...

[Rasman]

so, effectively, you only need 6 levels of fighter to make a dungeon crasher build?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

so, effectively, you only need 6 levels of fighter to make a dungeon crasher build?

You'll notice occasional references to Fighter being a 1, 2, or 6 level class? That's why.

[Seffbasilisk]

Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

[Eldariel]

Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

Warforged is unfortunately slightly subpar as that means you aren't playing a Large race which makes Knockback off-limits without basic trickery (and losing your key abilities in Dead Magic Zones sucks for a martial type); I personally prefer Goliath Barb/War Hulk.

[Rasman]

Warforged is unfortunately slightly subpar as that means you aren't playing a Large race which makes Knockback off-limits without basic trickery (and losing your key abilities in Dead Magic Zones sucks for a martial type); I personally prefer Goliath Barb/War Hulk.

wouldn't Jortenbrud Feat (or however you spell it) work just as well?

[Eldariel]

wouldn't Jortenbrud Feat (or however you spell it) work just as well?

Not strictly speaking, no. Powerful Build works since it's specifically spelled out in the feat that it works, but Jotunbrud has...well, there's no precedent for it making you count as Large for qualifications.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

Winged Half-Ogre Dungeoncrasher 6/Barb 1/War Hulk 10. Use the last level on commoner or something. War Hulk is too awesome to not take.

[Eldariel]

Winged Half-Ogre Dungeoncrasher 6/Barb 1/War Hulk 10. Use the last level on commoner or something. War Hulk is too awesome to not take.

Losing some iteratives does cut into your damage quite notably though, especially if Skillful weapons or such quick patches aren't available.

[Bayar]

Warforged is unfortunately slightly subpar as that means you aren't playing a Large race which makes Knockback off-limits without basic trickery (and losing your key abilities in Dead Magic Zones sucks for a martial type); I personally prefer Goliath Barb/War Hulk.

Yes, but the synergy with Warforged Juggernaut cannot be ignored.

[Soranar]

wouldn't Dragon Disciple be superior to War Hulk ? Instead of +10 str you gain +8 with Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, flight and AC +4

[AslanCross]

wouldn't Dragon Disciple be superior to War Hulk ? Instead of +10 str you gain +8 with Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, flight and AC +4

It also requires spellcasting, which kind of ruins the whole build.

Some levels in a ToB class would also help, if only for access to Charging Minotaur (Warblade would probably be the best since you can replenish your maneuvers quickly and often and the levels stack with fighter). Even better, the maneuvers give you something else to do when you find yourself in a position where you can't bull rush.

[Soranar]

Well instead of going fighter 6/Barbarian 1/War hulk 10
you go fighter 6/Hexblade 1(best spontaneous I could find to fit)/Dragon Disciple 10

only problem is that the strength bonus is not scaled like war hulk, but at least you get a BAB progression so you can always just hit something

[Darrin]

I've heard people talk about the "Dungeon Crasher" build a lot and how it can do some rediculous damage, but no one has ever actually said what the build consists of, other than the fact that it's a fighter build. What feats exactly compose the Dungeon Crasher build and other than saying "you run people into walls" how does it work?

Well, in my mind "Dungeon Crasher" and Person_Man's "Flaming Homer" build are somewhat synonymous. It certainly was a big part of the inspiration behind my King of Pong build.

[term1nally s1ck]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=22

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248

are the awesome versions.


EDIT: Hey, look, a ninja.

[Grumman]

you go fighter 6/Hexblade 1(best spontaneous I could find to fit)/Dragon Disciple 10

Hexblade is a Paladin-style half-casting class: it can't cast spells until level 4.

[Starbuck_II]

He meant Duskblade I think.

[Gnorman]

He meant Duskblade I think.

Let's hope. Otherwise that's going to be a hard sell of a build.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

Fighterk/Kensai with Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, and the Sizing weapon enchantment on his Unarmed Strikes.

[Signmaker]

Fighterk/Kensai with Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, and the Sizing weapon enchantment on his Unarmed Strikes.

If you get enough Kensai Levels, as well as a necklace of natural attacks (or telekinetic throw), you can also tack on Triple-Throw. In other words, you Buddha-palm craters.

[Person_Man]

I see that all the good advice has pretty much already been given. To summarize:

You can improve your Bull Rush with any of the following:

• Brutal Surge weapon enhancement: Free Bull Rush Con bonus times per day. Magic Item Compendium.
• Factotum 3: Int to Str checks.
• Improved Bull Rush: +4.
• Karmic Strike: Enemy hits you, you hit them back, and use Brutal Surge or Knockback to Bull Rush them away from you, preventing a full attack.
• Knockback: Free Bull Rush whenever you Power Attack an enemy. Requires Large or bigger size, or Powerful Build.
• Marshal 1: Cha to Str checks.
• Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld: 2 + (2 * essentia) to Str checks.
• Robilar's Gambit: Enemy swings at you, you hit them back, and use Brutal Surge or Knockback to Bull Rush them away from you, preventing a full attack.
• Shield of the Severed Hand: Free Bull Rush once per round when an enemy attacks and misses you, often preventing a full attack. Requires True Believer. Comp Divine and Magic Item Compendium.
• Shock Trooper: Steer your Bull Rush, Trip enemies when you knock them into each other. See Flaming Homer.
• Size: Enlarge Person, Expansion, Giant Size, Polymorph, etc.
• Strength bonus: War Hulk, Kensai, magic items, etc.
• Step of the Wind stance (Setting Sun 1): +4 when in difficult terrain.
• Warblade 11: Int to Bull Rush (and most other opposed checks).
• Warforged Juggernaut 5: Class level to Bull Rush checks. Also grants moderate damage bonuses on Charge attacks, and a excellent list of construct immunities.

Which combo you pick basically depends on your stats, ECL, books allowed, and what your other build goals might be. Note that many other abilities/feats grant you a bonus to resist Bull Rushes (like Dwarvern Stability), which does not count when you initiate them.

Dungeoncrasher is a great mid level option, particularly so if you play in a large party, with plenty of opportunities to create AoO for your friends by Bull Rushing enemies directly past them and into other enemies, Tripping both enemies. But it loses much of it's usefulness at higher levels because Bull Rushing your enemy often prevents you from making a full attack, and taking 6 levels of Fighter prevents your from getting access to high level maneuvers, psionics, spells, capstone abilities, etc.

Also note that Dungeoncrasher is a poor idea against some enemies, either because they are immune to Bull Rush attacks (Swarm, Incorporeal), or because they are so ridiculously big and/or strong that your chance of success is negligible. So have a backup plan that doesn't depend on Str checks, such as a Daze attack, spells, maneuvers, soulmelds, psionics, etc.

[Gametime]

It also requires spellcasting, which kind of ruins the whole build.

Not necessarily; there's some precedent for barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple being a decent build. Access to first level buff spells can make your bull rushing better; you just have to build the character with that in mind.

I could see Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10/whatever 3 being passable. You'd have Enlarge Person for yourself, at least. You'd probably need Able Learner or something to get those Knowledge ranks without completely killing your skills, of course.

[Blackfang108]

You'd probably need Able Learner or something to get those Knowledge ranks without completely killing your skills, of course.

That's why I prefer Duskblade instead of Sorceror for this: All Knowledge skills ARE class skills. Granted, the List isn't Great, but you can actually USE your spells.

[Starbuck_II]

Not necessarily; there's some precedent for barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple being a decent build. Access to first level buff spells can make your bull rushing better; you just have to build the character with that in mind.

I could see Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10/whatever 3 being passable. You'd have Enlarge Person for yourself, at least. You'd probably need Able Learner or something to get those Knowledge ranks without completely killing your skills, of course.

But you can't use Enlarge Person after you finish DD since you are no longer a person.

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, you could always go half-minotaur 1 (buy it off)/fighter 6/ardent 1/illithid slayer 10/ToB class 3, taking mantles that allow you access to expansion and metamorphosis.

Practiced Manifester is practically a given, of course.

[Person_Man]

But you can't use Enlarge Person after you finish DD since you are no longer a person.

Correct. But you can use Alter Self (presumably through a scroll or wand), presumably to turn yourself into a Dragon one size category larger.

However, I personally think that Dragon Disciple is a poor choice. 10 levels for +8 Str (only +4 bonus to Bull Rush), +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Cha, and a bunch of mediocre class abilities that can be duplicated with affordable magic items and feats is ripoff.

[Xenogears]

wouldn't Dragon Disciple be superior to War Hulk ? Instead of +10 str you gain +8 with Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, flight and AC +4

.....Warhulk gives +2 STR per level. It gives +20 STR in total. Dragon Disciple is less than half that.

[9mm]

.....Warhulk gives +2 STR per level. It gives +20 STR in total. Dragon Disciple is less than half that.

you also know what's sexy with Warhulk? Legacy Champion. +2 strength and BAB? yes please!