3.5 Unseen Seer help

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am thinking ob building an unseen seer for a lvl 10 eberron game, right now I am thinking on going

Whisper Gnome
Rogue1/Specialist Conjurer (Evocation & Enchantment Banned) 4/ Unseen Seer 5

feats most likely going to be Craven (1) Practiced Spellcaster (3) Obtain Familiar (6) Improved Familiar (9)[thinking on an imp] and possibly going to get Darkstalker at lvl 12.

I am taking the ACF Abrupt Jaunt
For Advanced learning spell I am getting Hunter's Eye and Sniper's eye.

Gear will most likely be an enchanted handcrossbow with several enchanted bolts: Some bane, some spell storing and... maybe holy? also several wands (Golem strike, vinestrike, gravestrike, grease).. maybe a minor eschema (magic weapon or maybe greater magic weapon If I can afford it)

Any suggestions on how to improve this little guy?

[Sinfire Titan]

Use Spellthief and Master Spellthief over Rogue.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Use Spellthief and Master Spellthief over Rogue.

Care to elaborate please? I am not familiar with spellthieves

[Gametime]

Looks fine from here. Make sure you pick up Guided Shot at the next Advanced Learning opportunity, so you can start making sneak attacks, invisibly, from hundreds and hundreds of feet away.

[kladams707]

Care to elaborate please? I am not familiar with spellthieves

A spellthief uses the sneak attack to steal spells (by sacrificing the 1d6 of sneak attack).

Complete Adventurer for more info on the class and Complete Scoundrel for the Master Spellthief feat

[Eldariel]

For what it's worth, I prefer Rogue-entry; Master Spellthief is just an excess feat and you don't exactly have too much room for those to start with while Rogue has 8 more skill points, pretty key in a skill monkey. And better skill list. The spells you can store cap at Spellthief-levels anyways meaning the ability is of quite little use, even with Master Spellthief. Basically, Master Spellthief lets you wear light armor without ACF; Mage Armor is at least as good.

Unseen Seer should probably pick up Hunter's Eye and you should probably pick up Extend Spell and Persistent Spell; on level 15, you can Persist Hunter's Eye normally, along with Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot and such making you much better at Sneak Attacking. You could also use Vinestrike/Gravestrike (Wand/UMD as necessary) if you don't want to waste your Unseen Seer Advanced Learnings on them.

You could also Arcane Disciple for Divine Power if you wanna use weapons, and Persist that (maybe Metamagic School Focus) or pick up Split Ray or some such if you're into battlecasting instead. Also, last 5 levels should be either Spellwarp Sniper (though it's worse without Able Learner and only grants SA for Rays) or Arcane Trickster (maximizes SA, but has ****ty skill prerequisites).

[dobu]

last time I played an unseen seer I got the acidic splatter reserve feat, for unlimited sneak attack and no need for a weapon. extend + persist may be worth it für hunter's eye (it really depends on your group though).

maybe get the 5th level of wizard for the sweet spontaneus divination ACF from complete champion (never ever prepare divination spells)

for the sneaky caster archetype, the proteus feat from exemplars of evil is quite flavorful, in my opinion...

just my 2 cp

[Optimystik]

Care to elaborate please? I am not familiar with spellthieves

They are available online; take a look!

[Kurald Galain]

I like the Spellthief entry. Even if you can't use the spells you steal for yourself, denying them from your enemy is still fun.

[Dusk Eclipse]

First of all thank you everybody;the insight of the playground is as helpful as always

@ Sinfire & Kladams: Thanks for the advice on spellthief, but after checking it I have to agree with eldariel that rogue is a better option.

@Eldariel: Is persisting as worthwhile to wizards as to clerics? at level 15 I would be using 7 or 8 level spell slots so I am not sure on that. Besides if I do take spontaneous divination (Which I am strongly considering) I think that extend should be enough.

@dobu: Proteous IS flavorfull but I am not sure if Spell focus (illusion) would be good since I am not sure of using glamers (beside I don't recall any particular powerful glamer off-hand).

@Optimystik: Thanks for the link.

So far nobody has commented on my idea of familiar, is it good? should I instead forget about it and get better feats.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel: Is persisting as worthwhile to wizards as to clerics? at level 15 I would be using 7 or 8 level spell slots so I am not sure on that. Besides if I do take spontaneous divination (Which I am strongly considering) I think that extend should be enough.

This is the one case where it's worthwhile for a Wizard that can't cheat the cost á la Incantatrix. Notice how all the spells a Sneak Attacker wants are level 1-2, but only last 1 round. This means you can't combine them.

You can't SA a Construct with Concealment from 200' away. Let alone with Hunter's Eye. You also can't cast spells while using these in conjuction with SA. Hunter's Eye is the thing that knocks you over the edge of making it worthwhile. The SA increase is so huge that it makes it worth it to get Persistent Spell.

[Renegade Paladin]

The time I bult an unseen seer, I went human and used the human paragon class. Rogue 1/diviner 1/human paragon 3/unseen seer 10, losing only two caster levels. I realize your build as stated only loses one, but can you actually meet the skill requirements with rogue 1/wizard 4? Hide, Move Silently, and Spot are all cross-class; you can't put 8 ranks into each of them that way.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The time I bult an unseen seer, I went human and used the human paragon class. Rogue 1/diviner 1/human paragon 3/unseen seer 10, losing only two caster levels. I realize your build as stated only loses one, but can you actually meet the skill requirements with rogue 1/wizard 4? Hide, Move Silently, and Spot are all cross-class; you can't put 8 ranks into each of them that way.

In-class from Rogue and Able Learner.

[Eldariel]

The time I bult an unseen seer, I went human and used the human paragon class. Rogue 1/diviner 1/human paragon 3/unseen seer 10, losing only two caster levels. I realize your build as stated only loses one, but can you actually meet the skill requirements with rogue 1/wizard 4? Hide, Move Silently, and Spot are all cross-class; you can't put 8 ranks into each of them that way.

Sigh. For billionth time, max ranks are defined by if a skill has ever been a class skill or not. It works just fine.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The time I bult an unseen seer, I went human and used the human paragon class. Rogue 1/diviner 1/human paragon 3/unseen seer 10, losing only two caster levels. I realize your build as stated only loses one, but can you actually meet the skill requirements with rogue 1/wizard 4? Hide, Move Silently, and Spot are all cross-class; you can't put 8 ranks into each of them that way.

Yep on my table we houserule that once a class-skill always a class skill in regards to both max ranks and cost (I was really confused when I read up Able Learner)

So that is not a problem.

[Optimystik]

I like the Spellthief entry. Even if you can't use the spells you steal for yourself, denying them from your enemy is still fun.

Even better is taking them from your allies, and using your actions to buff the party while they start the battlefield control. You can effectively double the actions of the other casters - that's no small achievement.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If flaws are kosher at your table, and even if not, I would still go Spellthief over Rogue. Helps a small bit on the caster level front, opens up the option to steal spells from friend and foes alike, and may also lead into other fun and profit like twice your character level in CL.

Admittedly, RAW, you can still only hold onto your Spellthief level's worth of spells, but, seeing as how the level of spells you can steal increases, this may be an oversight. If this small bit is taken into account, you can now grab some handy dandy Cleric/Druid/Other Caster only buff spells for yourself, assuming the player doesn't mind. And, hell, your a sneak, so that last bit probably doesn't even matter.



Also, I would probably drop Darkstalker, as you should be able to hide from everything it does via judicious use of magic. I would also consider grabbing a Pseudodragon with Improved Familiar, as they make excellent radar stations with Mindsight. This probably won't get the greenlight, but you may want to talk with your DM about possibly retraining/Chaos Shuffling away Obtain Familiar for Extend Spell after you have Improved Familiar.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll need to check if my DM is in for retraining obtain familiar for extend

[Akal Saris]

Depending on your dex and group, point blank shot and precise shot might be good investments as well - since you're starting at 9th, they're probably not completely necessary though. I'd drop practiced spellcaster until later in the build, probably not worth it until you're 2-3 CL down. Also, don't forget quicken spell :)

Here's an alternative build:

Point Blank Shot (1)
Precise Shot (2) - trade conjurer's Scribe Scroll using Unearthed Arcana's substituting fighter bonus feats
Craven (3)
Obtain Familiar (6)
Improved Familiar (9) (Imp sounds great, I also like coure eladrin from BoED)
Practiced Spellcaster (12)
Quicken Spell (15) or Extend Spell
Darkstalker (18) or Persistent Spell (if you took Extend)

[Dusk Eclipse]

@Akal: I am actually starting at level 10, althought the CL loss might be a bit much, I am the only arcane caster in the party a Psion/Quori Nightmare (pseudo gish), Ranger/cleric going into a divine version of arcane archer, Pyrokinetist (don't know the build but I believe it has some duskblade levels), and a halfling whose build I don't remember (might be psionic)

So Skill-monkery and arcane casting is on my hands

Edit: the minor eschema of greater magic weapon still looks sweet, I know a wiz should never cast a spell that is on the Cleric list but from a eschema it looks quite useful

(minor eschemas were the scroll equivalent of eternal wands right?)

[dobu]

@dobu: Proteous IS flavorfull but I am not sure if Spell focus (illusion) would be good since I am not sure of using glamers (beside I don't recall any particular powerful glamer off-hand).

well, It's just handy to have all these invisibility spells or disguise spells when they are needed. sure, it's not a particular powerful feat, but still good (just imagine a spontaneus swift invisibility, or displacement) :-)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Invisibility and disguise spells are glamers?!?!?!?!... that certainly changes things, but still spell focus (ilussion) is a cost that I am not sure to want to pay

[deuxhero]

A spellthief uses the sneak attack to steal spells (by sacrificing the 1d6 of sneak attack).

Complete Adventurer for more info on the class and Complete Scoundrel for the Master Spellthief feat

No need for CA, Spelltheif is an excerpt.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I just realized that you're just a bog standard Conjurer (well, you do have Abrupt Jaunt, so...); have you considered going Focused Specialist for a few extra spells/day? Also, seeing as a large amount of your group is Psionic, you may want to look into using Psithief (Either the feat or the alternate class feature. If the feat is easy enough to grab, I would almost go that over removing your ability to grab spells, but I'll touch on that later.)

For feats, I'd probably go something like the below. Flaws help, but they aren't for everyone.

1st: Craven
If Flaws are kosher, also grab Extend Spell and TWF here. (Generally, I prefer to go TWF over the archery-styled Unseen Seer, as you're going to be within melee range of your targets anyhow to get sneak attack until Persistent Spell comes into play. Plus, with the Jaunt and stacked miss chances, you should be fine anyhow. *Shrug* Although, if you want to delay your choice on TWFing, you could grab Practiced Spellcaster here instead))
Wizard Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
3rd: Knowledge Devotion (The bonuses to hit and damage mesh well with Sneak Attack-based attacks. Also, you're a wizard, you know things.)
6th: Master Spellthief
9th: Persistent Spell, Reserve feat, Psithief or choice of combat style feat ((I)(G)TWF/Point Blank Shot tree)
12th: Open-ish
15th: Open-ish
18th: Open-ish

If flaws are a no go, just push everything back, probably dropping either the MM-reducer feats and some of the combat-style feats.

Other options include Arcane Strike, if you go Abjurant Champion and somehow squeeze out to better than 3/4 BAB, Ocular Spell, Metamagic School Focus (Either for Conjuration or Divination), and/or Sculpt Spell. Arcane Strike is probably unnecessary due to the large amounts of sneak attack dice you can pull. Ocular Spell is mostly there to get around targeting issues with buff spells and other oddities. Metamagic School Focus works well at lower levels with Sculpt Spell on Conjuration, but kind of loses steam once Metamagic Rods of Sculpting (normal or lesser) become affordable. Same goes for Sculpt Spell itself.

For melee combat, use Fey-crafted weapons to get Dex to hit without sinking a feat into Weapon Finesse. Ranged Combat is all about the spells, wands, and reserve options.