Is it just me or does "Master of the unseen hand" really,really, stink?

[Gamerlord]

So, I have heard of powerful builds linked to this prestige class, 3.5 by the way. But in my eyes this prestige class seems to STINK.
1. It is a one-trick pony that focuses on expanding the utility of one spell.
2. It doesn't boost your caster level, and yet it is a caster class. This is a 5th level spell it depends on, you will get very few uses with it because of this, the centerpiece of the class puts only a few cards in your hand, to use a metaphor, once you use up all those cards, your levels in it suddenly become very,very, useless.
3. You need to be at least 9th level to qualify, and it's features don't seem to make up for it.

Am I missing something? Did I not read the class the right way?

[drengnikrafe]

Leading experts agree with you. I think we can call them leading experts...

Down two tiers

[Hzurr]

Nope, you read it exactly right. This PrC (while so exciting in theory) sucks. Really badly. Do. Not. Take.

[Optimystik]

It's for ghosts.

[Seffbasilisk]

Need I say more?

[Magnor Criol]

I don't have the books in front of me at the moment, but if we simply tacked on full casting progression to the class, would that fix it? Make it too powerful?

What about the semi-standard full casting except first level?

[Optimystik]

The trouble with this class is that you can replace it entirely with two spells - Defenestrating Sphere and Whirling Blade.

If you're going to make it advance casting, drop it from full BAB to 3/4, I'd say.

[Bibliomancer]

It can make a score of full attacks in one turn is optimized properly and some slightly ambiguous wording is applied. Other than that, it's useless.

[Optimystik]

It can make a score of full attacks in one turn is optimized properly and some slightly ambiguous wording is applied. Other than that, it's useless.

...for PCs. As I pointed out though, it's pretty nice for ghosts, or indeed anything with TK as an SLA that makes touch attacks.

[Glimbur]

It's more useful but still non-optimal in Gestalt, where you can cover for the caster level loss.

[Starbuck_II]

The trouble with this class is that you can replace it entirely with two spells - Defenestrating Sphere and Whirling Blade.

If you're going to make it advance casting, drop it from full BAB to 3/4, I'd say.

Could you make a class out of those spells?

[Optimystik]

Could you make a class out of those spells?

I suppose, but why would you want to? Be a normal wizard/sorcerer, learn both spells, just tell everyone you're an unseen whatever, and start flinging orcs skyward while your axe flies around hacking things - all without losing caster levels.

[Drogorn]

Has anybody ever cooked up a telekinesis-based base class?

[AstralFire]

The class suffers from the issue 90% of interesting caster PrCs do - spells are so good that having your full spell list is far superior to most of the tricks.

[Heliomance]

Etherscale disagrees with your analysis.

[Optimystik]

It's not even that interesting - as I pointed out, you can duplicate all the cooler stuff with spells.

PrCs should carry very unique effects - especially their capstones. Look at Divine Oracle - You can act in a surprise round - that's pretty amazing. Arcane Heirophant - your animal companion becomes your familiar too. You can't get that anywhere else. MotAO - your spells known shoots through the roof, but you pay a price. Excellent.

For a PrC to revolve around abilities you can duplicate elsewhere... is pretty sad.

[Mystic Muse]

Has anybody ever cooked up a telekinesis-based base class?

Do Psionics count?

[Optimystik]

Do Psionics count?

Unfortunately no, because the psionic version of TK is split into three different powers for some arbitrary reason.

[JoshuaZ]

Unfortunately no, because the psionic version of TK is split into three different powers for some arbitrary reason.

The claimed official reason is balance. Because psions get limited numbers of powers to make up for their essentially spontaneous casting. This is crap. All the TK powers should be rolled into one. This also makes a lot more sense fluff wise. Who has heard of someone with telekinetic ability being all like "yeah, so I can push a big objects, but can't send little objects quickly. Oh, and I can't use it to push people either." You need to play around with the augmentation rules slightly. (Best way I've seen is to make it a 3rd level power that can do any of the three powers except that to duplicate telekinetic maneuver you need to augment by 2 power points). This is a good example of how WoTC tried to balance other classes after learning what went wrong with wizards and the like and their response was to just nerf everyone else in comparison.

[Optimystik]

Even worse, it's inconsistent. Psions get plenty of "multipurpose powers" - the various "Energy" spells let you choose your element, Charm and Dominate can be augmented from "Person" to "Monster" without needing a whole new power - so they didn't seem to mind combining spells there.

But for one of the most iconic psychic abilities in all of fiction, they nerf psions. Lol?

[JoshuaZ]

Even worse, it's inconsistent. Psions get plenty of "multipurpose powers" - the various "Energy" spells let you choose your element, Charm and Dominate can be augmented from "Person" to "Monster" without needing a whole new power - so they didn't seem to mind combining spells there.

But for one of the most iconic psychic abilities in all of fiction, they nerf psions. Lol?

Yeah, and this actually makes less sense with the energy powers. How frequently in fiction does one have psionically gifted people who can manipulate fire or shoot out fire? Pretty frequently. (For reasons that aren't clear, they are generally young females. I think Carrie started that pattern but it may have existed prior to that) How often can those people use those same abilities to control cold or electricity? Not very often. Thus, this combination actually makes it more difficult to play a classic psionic trope, unless one just pretends that one's powers are much weaker than they are. Which, since they aren't balanced that way, further nerfs them.

And while we're on the general bad interaction of psioncs and taking the thread further afield, is anyone else bothered by the fact that since the Sending spell is evocation, it gets treated as in the psychokinesis discipline for all purposes that matter when dealing with psionic/magic transparency? This makes no sense. Meanwhile, psionists get the slightly better Correspond power at the same level wizards get Sending. So, psionists can't even bridge great distances with their minds any faster than wizards. At minimum, there should be an equivalent version of Sending that is 3rd level Psion/Wilder, is in the telepathy school and otherwise duplicates Sending. Unfortunately, this makes the Sending spell's treatment as evocation/psychokinesis even more glaring rather than less so.

[Kantolin]

2. It doesn't boost your caster level, and yet it is a caster class.

Technically, it does increase your caster level for the purposes of teleknesis, which is pretty much the only reason you're taking the class. :P So for that particular purpose, it's not quite that bad - it makes you actually better at using teleknesis, unlike say the mindbender which doesn't ever get dominate monster.

I think that also means if you do bloodline nonsense with it, you can actually have a particularly high caster level for teleknesis due to how it's worded. But those are shenanigans...

[Optimystik]

Yeah, and this actually makes less sense with the energy powers. How frequently in fiction does one have psionically gifted people who can manipulate fire or shoot out fire? Pretty frequently. (For reasons that aren't clear, they are generally young females. I think Carrie started that pattern but it may have existed prior to that) How often can those people use those same abilities to control cold or electricity? Not very often. Thus, this combination actually makes it more difficult to play a classic psionic trope, unless one just pretends that one's powers are much weaker than they are. Which, since they aren't balanced that way, further nerfs them.

Well, keeping with the "pseudoscience" theme of psionics, the various elements in one power do actually make sense. If you can agitate matter to heat it up, retarding its vibration should make it very cold. Psionics work on a more molecular level than traditional magic. Similarly, you should be able to create electricity with a static charge or clap air molecules together to make sonic.

And while we're on the general bad interaction of psioncs and taking the thread further afield, is anyone else bothered by the fact that since the Sending spell is evocation, it gets treated as in the psychokinesis discipline for all purposes that matter when dealing with psionic/magic transparency? This makes no sense. Meanwhile, psionists get the slightly better Correspond power at the same level wizards get Sending. So, psionists can't even bridge great distances with their minds any faster than wizards. At minimum, there should be an equivalent version of Sending that is 3rd level Psion/Wilder, is in the telepathy school and otherwise duplicates Sending. Unfortunately, this makes the Sending spell's treatment as evocation/psychokinesis even more glaring rather than less so.

The "school" system is bad all around - at least magic got as badly scuffed there as psionics did. For instance, how is Fly a transmutation spell rather than evocation? One would imagine you're using energy of some kind to leave the ground like that. How is it illusion can pull from the Plane of Shadow more powerfully than conjuration can? Causing your hand to leech heat from targets is textbook energy manipulation - so why is it necromancy instead of evocation?

[Akal Saris]

Hey, I'm playing a 4E telepathic psion, and I realized yesterday that I don't have the ability to read somebody's mind.

I can send thoughts to them telepathically and have them respond, I can rip myself out of their 6-second memory, and I can attack their will saves...but I can't actually read their thoughts. Bah.

Regarding master of the unseen hand, it is indeed best as a PrC for ghosts. I'm working on a build for it right now actually, I'll post it when I finish.

[JoshuaZ]

Well, keeping with the "pseudoscience" theme of psionics, the various elements in one power do actually make sense. If you can agitate matter to heat it up, retarding its vibration should make it very cold. Psionics work on a more molecular level than traditional magic. Similarly, you should be able to create electricity with a static charge or clap air molecules together to make sonic.

Yes, but most psionic characters classically can't do it both ways (not unreasonably. If one is continuing with the sort of pseudoscientific justification it is a lot easier to agitate molecules than it is to slow them down).

The "school" system is bad all around - at least magic got as badly scuffed there as psionics did. For instance, how is Fly a transmutation spell rather than evocation? One would imagine you're using energy of some kind to leave the ground like that. How is it illusion can pull from the Plane of Shadow more powerfully than conjuration can? Causing your hand to leech heat from targets is textbook energy manipulation - so why is it necromancy instead of evocation?

The problem here is really simple: They couldn't make up their mind how spells should be allocated. There are two arguments for allocation: One allocate based on effect. Two, based on how they accomplish the effect. Thus for example, Mage Armor is under conjuration because it makes a force effect (using argument 2), but some very similar spells are under abjuration even when they explicitly use force (using argument 1).

Making living things cold sounds all necromancyish so it gets under necromancy under argument One. But apparently other cold creating effects get to go under evocation. In fairness, the fluff for Chill Touch talks about removing "lifeforce" not heat. But then why is Chill Metal transmutation rather than evocation? And why is Poison necromancy? It seems like involves transmutation or conjuration.

[Zaq]

Even worse, it's inconsistent. Psions get plenty of "multipurpose powers" - the various "Energy" spells let you choose your element, Charm and Dominate can be augmented from "Person" to "Monster" without needing a whole new power - so they didn't seem to mind combining spells there.

But for one of the most iconic psychic abilities in all of fiction, they nerf psions. Lol?

I always figured that it was so you could have it at lower levels... but that's kind of precisely what the augmentation system is for, isn't it? Yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As for MotUH, well, it's from Complete Warrior, also known as Complete Subclass Of Characters Whom WotC Has Denied Nice Things. Even the magic classes suck. There are very few classes in CW that are genuinely good, with maybe two or three exceptions (I freely admit that Bear Warrior is awesome). Everything else is either underpowered, insane (Hurler, anyone?), or useless until abused (Halfling Outrider... which isn't really that bad without the Dragon material, but still). Or Frenzied Berserker, which is in a class of its own.

I guess it could be a fun, if not overwhelmingly powerful, gestalt class. As has been mentioned, it's not terrible on creatures like ghosts that get TK as an SLA, but still, it's just a mediocre class all around. Might make a fun mid-boss type character, I suppose, if he had the arena advantage.

[Ogremindes]

...Frenzied Berserker, which is in a class of its own.

It wasn't always the case, but then he banged his head on his desk after picking up a dropped pencil...

[Dimers]

It wasn't always the case, but then he banged his head on his desk after picking up a dropped pencil...

Agh ... urkh ... gleh! Oh, the searing pun! Why do you pain-ish us so?

[Sinfire Titan]

Agh ... urkh ... gleh! Oh, the searing pun! Why do you pain-ish us so?

Because you Optimizers deserve it. [/sarcasm]

[Temotei]

The class suffers from the issue 90% of interesting caster PrCs do - spells are so good that having your full spell list is far superior to most of the tricks.

Should I squee?