Char-Op Challenge: Sneak Attack

[Mongoose87]

The challenge: as many Sneak Attack Dice as you can get in 20 levels.

The score: Six points per die.

The bonus: Extra point for every point of BaB over 10.

The Prize: A coveted e-cookie.

The rules: There are no rules. Except that sudden strike counts.

GO!

EDIT: Sudden strike counts, upped points per die to 6.

[Mushroom Ninja]

The challenge: as many Sneak Attack Dice as you can get in 20 levels.

The score: Three points per die.

The bonus: Extra point for every point of BaB over 10.

The Prize: A coveted e-cookie.

The rules: There are no rules.

GO!

Does Sudden strike count as sneak attack for your purposes?

[Splendor]

UA's fighter variant on page 58. Get's sneak attacks instead of bonus feats.
BAB attack of 20, 10d6 sneak attack. That's 40 with out adding any magic items, racial abilities or odd prestige classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There should also be points for being able to bypass SA immunity and being able to apply it in more situations. SA, by itself, is fairly craptastic. Being able to apply SA as a touch or ranged touch attack should also count instead of BAB, because it makes it so much easier to hit with.

[Mongoose87]

I'll allow Sudden Strike to count. I'm also going to up the points per die, because the Sneak Attack Fighter is a boring winner.

[term1nally s1ck]

half a dozen classes that provide SA, and bloodline levels.

[UglyPanda]

I'm not participating, but I have a few questions since the rules will inevitably be changed:
-What about feats and abilities that improve the amount of sneak attack without increasing dice (Craven, Deadly Precision)?
-Are you counting number of dice pulled off in a full attack action, or the number of dice per attack? In other words, do builds that get more attacks per round get more points?
-What about Iaijutsu focus?
-What about builds that can give themselves more actions (Time stands still, that Factotum ability)?
-Since there are probably temporary buffs and 1/day abilities (Chameleon, Factotum), what is the minimum number of rounds the amount of sneak attack has to be active?

[JoshuaZ]

If we restrict to Core, we can get Rogue 19/Assassin 1 for 11 Sneak Attack die, and a BAB of 14, for a total of 80 points using your new numbers or 36 using your old. I believe this is the best one can do using core.

[Mushroom Ninja]

half a dozen classes that provide SA, and bloodline levels.

Do bloodline levels advance sneak attack?

[Xey42]

rogue 3, wizard 3, unseen seer 2, uncanny trickster 10; assassin 1, sa fighter 1 somewhere in there.. take hunters eye in unseen seer with practiced spellcaster, martial study to get assassins stance. 18 sneak attack dice (2 rogue, 1 unseen seer, 5 trickster, 1 assassin, 1 fighter, 6 hunters eye, 2 assassins stance), 14 bab using fractional (i think)

[faceroll]

If you pick up Arcane Disciple, have 7 levels of wizard casting and three levels of incantatrix, you can get full BAB with war domain.

[Eldariel]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 8. +8d6 base dice.

Feats:
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
Arcane Disciple: War
Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
Practiced Spellcaster

Trait:
Spellgifted: Divination.

Caster Level Boosting:
UMD Beads of Karma +4
Orange Prism Ioun Stone +1
Ring of Arcane Might +1
Robe of Arcane Might +1 Competence
Magical Tattoo +1
Band of Spell Enhancement +2
Adept Spirit +1 Insight
Spell Enhancer +2

This gives you a total of CL 36 for Hunter's Eye. Then you, using normal slots, persist:
Divine Power (with help from Metamagic School Focus)
Hunter's Eye
Sniper's Shot
Guided Shot
Golemstrike/Vinestrike/Gravestrike

No range limit on SAs, able to hit targets with Concealment with SA, etc. Hunter's Eye gives you +1d6 SA per 3 caster levels, so CL 36 means you get +12d6 SA giving you +20d6 SA total. +22d6 with Assassin's Stance. Divine Power means you have full BAB.


Better caster can beat this rather easily (I didn't, for example, use Shapechange into that one creature with inherent ~+7d6 SA nor did I really optimize the Caster Level; Divine does that better as do tricks), but this is a decent baseline. I also didn't bind anything nor did I use soulmelds. All of those add more too.

BAB 20 = 10 points.
SA +22d6 = 132 points.
Total: 142 points.

[Mongoose87]

I'm not participating, but I have a few questions since the rules will inevitably be changed:
-What about feats and abilities that improve the amount of sneak attack without increasing dice (Craven, Deadly Precision)?
-Are you counting number of dice pulled off in a full attack action, or the number of dice per attack? In other words, do builds that get more attacks per round get more points?
-What about Iaijutsu focus?
-What about builds that can give themselves more actions (Time stands still, that Factotum ability)?
-Since there are probably temporary buffs and 1/day abilities (Chameleon, Factotum), what is the minimum number of rounds the amount of sneak attack has to be active?

• Single attack
• Score is by dice
• I have no idea how Iaijutsu focus works
• Extra actions don't help

[ShneekeyTheLost]

half a dozen classes that provide SA, and bloodline levels.

Legacy Champion has a better BAB.

Best way to do this? Rogue1/Spellthief1/Sneak Attack Fighter3/Assassin3/Arcane Trickster1/Swordsage2/Nightsong Enforcer1/Ninja1/Unseen Seer1/Avenging Executioner1/Master of Masks1(Assassin Mask)/Spellwarp Sniper2/Invisible Blade1/Binder1 (some bind that gives SA)

So, here's the dice we have:

16d6 Sneak Attack total (using Assassin's Stance from Swordsage, and Assassin's Mask from MoM). Not counting any vestiges which grant additional Sneak Attack dice.

16*6 = 96 points right there. Heck, at 48 points, it beats the straight SA fighter hands down.

[Boci]

Legacy Champion has a better BAB.

But bloodlines advance all your classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But bloodlines advance all your classes.

No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

[Foryn Gilnith]

[*]I have no idea how Iaijutsu focus works

Find a flat-footed person.
Draw a melee weapon.
Attack said flat-footed person.
Make an Iaijutsu Focus check (it's a charisma-based skill)
Deal extra d6s of damage based on your check result.

No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

lolwut

[Coidzor]

So what's the limit on the number of bloodlines one can take? As otherwise that basically just adds 3 SA per source of SA per 3 level bloodline, right?

[Mushroom Ninja]

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that bloodlines advance SA at all as it is a class feature.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=3084.0

i win

[Mongoose87]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=3084.0

i win

I think you probably do.

[d13]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that bloodlines advance SA at all as it is a class feature.

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features.

(...)

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (...)

Is says that it doesn't GRANT class features, but it says that it advances any character abilities based on its level.

[JaronK]

The challenge: as many Sneak Attack Dice as you can get in 20 levels.

The score: Six points per die.

The bonus: Extra point for every point of BaB over 10.

The Prize: A coveted e-cookie.

The rules: There are no rules. Except that sudden strike counts.

Human Factotum 4/Rogue 16 with two flaws, and 13 Fonts of Inspiration (three as Rogue bonus feats). Normally you have 8d6 sneak attack, but then you use the Factotum 4 ability to get one sneak attack die per inspiration point. Your base is 3 Inspiration points, but 13 Fonts of Inspiration gives you 91 more to a total of 94 Inspiration points. This you convert into 94d6 sneak attack.

Total sneak attack (one round per encounter) is 102d6 per attack.

Note that you could then UMD a wand of Hunters Eye (+1d6 sneak attack for every three caster levels) if someone would make you one of sufficiently high level.

And you're still an incredibly flexible build. Total points by your rules: 617.

Option 2 (The horribly cheesy option): Archivist 19/Sacred Exorcist 1. Use a Consumptive Field loop to boost your caster level as high as you can, then persist Hunter's Eye. Use a Bead of Karma when you start. If you just cast 6 Consumptive Fields and 5 Greater Consumptive Fields (assuming a pretty conservative number here, minimal numbers of bonus spells through stats) and use them on bags of rats, and had a starting caster level of 24 (Bead of Karma), your total caster level becomes 2053 (assuming GCF overlaps with and does not stack with Consumptive Field... if it does the number is much higher). Persist Hunter's Eye at this point and now you have 684d6 sneak attack on every attack, but it lasts all day. Wheee! I'd recommend persisting Divine Power and Giant Size at this point for all kinds of mayhem.

So, I've probably been ninja'd at this point, but hopefully option two beats other entries by an order of magnitude. That would be nice.

Total points by your rules on this guy: 4114 (when persisting Divine Power for full BAB).

JaronK

[JaronK]

Is says that it doesn't GRANT class features, but it says that it advances any character abilities based on its level.

It was errataed. It doesn't work for sneak attack or animal companions (much to my chagrin, as that errata killed the Ubermount build). Basically, it only works for things that specifically say "X effect based on character level." Rogues don't say they get 1d6 sneak attack/2 character levels, they just have a table entry that specifically says when they get it. And then they specifically nerfed animal companions. See the errata for more details.

JaronK

[SurlySeraph]

Human Rogue 2/ Spellthief 1/ Ninja 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 5/ Assassin 1/ Nightsong Enforcer 1/ Ronin 1/ Zhentarim Spy 1/ Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Master of Masks 1/Archivist 4

Take the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye.

Feats: Craven, Deceitful, Persuasive, Improved Initiative, EWP (Bastard Sword), Daring Outlaw, Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)

Equipment: Bracers of the Hunter (+1d6), Mantle of the Predator (+1d6), Rogue's Vest (+1d6), Deadly Precision Assassination weapon (+3d6), Wand of Critical Strike (+1d6), Ankh of Ascension (+4 caster level), Bead of Karma (+4 caster level)

Cast Hunter's Eye (CL 12) for +4d6 SA

This ends up with 26d6+20 SA and I think 11 BAB (would be a lot more if fractional BAB was allowed, of course). This is about the most you can do without massive Font of Inspiration, Polymorph, CL-boosting via Consumptive Field, and the various other tricks you see above that make 26d6 look like peanuts, though if anyone has more classes that give you +1d6 SA at first level please do mention them.

[JaronK]

Wait, I can improve that Archivist a lot. Take a level of Tainted Sorcerer (UA) and in fact you might as well go Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1 so you can have endless all day metamagics and full binding. Get your Wisdom up to a base of 30 (shouldn't be too hard by level 20). Let your taint score get to 59 (you can regulate it by casting Restoration and the like to keep from going crazy) and we'll assume you have an Orange Ioun Stone to make up the caster level difference. You now have bonus spells as though your casting stat were 69. IIRC that gives you 7 bonus 4th level spells and 6 bonus 7th level spells, so now you can Consumptive Field 12 more times compared to that first entry.

Your caster level is now around 266369, giving 88789d6 sneak attack per attack. Persist as many spells as you want (as long as you're binding Naberius). Even the last consumptive field lasts 18 days due to the incredible caster level, so many things don't even need to be persisted (you might as well extend them though). Of course, you need an insane number of rats to make this work. But still, you can have Shapechange, Girallion's Blessing, Divine Power, Giant Size, and a host of other insane buffs up too.

So... that ought to win by a few orders of magnitude. 532744 points, by the way.

JaronK

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just don't forget to make it an outsider for Polymorph: Kelvezu to get another +8d6 sneak attack.

[Boci]

No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

By common sense yes, but not by RAW.

[JaronK]

No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

They explicitly advance all of your classes... but they don't advance sneak attack, so it's irrelevant.

JaronK

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They explicitly advance all of your classes... but they don't advance sneak attack, so it's irrelevant.

JaronK

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

You appear to be in error.