Binders

[Azernak0]

i've read through the binder class and they look really fun. Has any one played one? Can they hold their own in terms of power?

[Narazil]

They're great fun. I've played one.

It really depends on what you want to do, but generally they can be decently powerful. Some binds are great, but the best thing of course is, that you can exchange party roll from one day to another.

[nekomata2]

I played one levels 1-8, and didn't find it particularly appealing. I never felt like I was powerful enough to keep up with most of my party... At early levels its fine, but it seems to slide down in power, then back up when certain vestiges are available then down, etc. I felt weaker closer to 4, fine at five, and weaker until level 8, when I got to bind two. Of course, the low magic nature of the campaign probably contributed a bit...

[Dragonmuncher]

Really? I'd think Binders would do better in a low-magic campaign- they do get magic abilities that they can slot in and out, after all.


Or is it that they don't have access to magic items to shore up their weaknesses?

[JaronK]

Well, if you use Anima Mage that problem goes away in a hurry. Binders are incredibly flexible and quite good, but they're not at the Wizard/Cleric/Druid power level, so you can fall behind in such games.

JaronK

[sonofzeal]

I played one in a lvl 12 game. He definitely seemed to hold his own. I wasn't a powerhouse, but I could do alright in combat and excelled at random wonky off-the-wall stuff that creeped everyone out. Good fun.

[Optimystik]

Binders are a seamless combination of usefulness and flavor. The signs and influences are like fun minigames between you and your DM, and the abilities are quite useful.

They lend themselves more to being gishes, particularly with the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC. A caster-oriented Binder should look into Tenebrous Apostate, Anima Mage or Anima Psion.

Binders become extremely powerful - low Tier 2 in fact - if they are allowed to bind Zceryll. This is because they can flood the battlefield with an army of summons given enough time, gain Mindsight out to 100 feet, become outsiders and gain DR, spell resistance, and acid/electricity resistance that scale with their level. She is the best level 6 vestige out there.

[Azernak0]

Zceryll looks pretty good. The only problem I can see is the fact that it requires a higher level. Can they work before than?

[Zaq]

Of course they can. They're solid T3 without Zceryll. Zceryll just (arguably) bumps them up to bottom T2. There's no shame in being T3.

[TheCountAlucard]

I just had a humorous thought; since they can swap roles from day to day, how would a party of four Binders work out?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

i've read through the binder class and they look really fun. Has any one played one? Can they hold their own in terms of power?

Decent class.

Give me the creeps though.

Perhaps I have read too much of things that man was not mean to know.

Ia Ia, Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

[Optimystik]

I just had a humorous thought; since they can swap roles from day to day, how would a party of four Binders work out?

Fairly well actually - they can keep up a rotation of the more powerful abilities so that they are always in use during the cooldown. 4 binders with Zceryll could flood every square of a battlefield, for instance. With the skill-based vestiges like Naberius, have one take 10 and all the others with that same vestige Aid him, and you can bypass almost any obstacle regularly. They can also possibly Aid Another on their Binding checks.

With the squick being shared all around, none of the characters will feel weird, or that they have to hide. Note however that an Anima Mage probably won't be welcome in a group of binders (unless the rest are anima magi as well.)

[JoshuaZ]

i've read through the binder class and they look really fun. Has any one played one? Can they hold their own in terms of power?

They are decently powerful. The default vestiges make a pretty decently strong character. If you include other vestiges that WoTC has published (even just the one's on the web) then the flexibility increases by a lot. There's one whose name I forget right now that allows you to summon monsters which is very strong.

Whatever you do, don't take levels in Tenebrous Apostate. It's a trap.

[lsfreak]

They're good. But don't forget the mantra of all things 3.5: specialization. You need to plan out your binder as to what they will be - skillmonkey/sneak, or tank, or heavy damager, or casters, or whatever else. You can and will be effective at secondary things, but you need to make sure you're at least really good at *one* thing.

[Azernak0]

I am having a hard time seeing the power that a binder has, aside from Summon Monster. SM is really great but I don't see how you wouldn't have to be carried at low levels in order to get there. i read the binder guide but couldn't really understand how the class was going to be decent. Air Blast + Power Attack doesn't seem like that great of an ability; no Strength damage Touch Attack with possibly Power Attack. It works out to 2d6+6 at level 9. An Orc Barbarian does 1d12+12 at level 1.

[Starbuck_II]

I am having a hard time seeing the power that a binder has, aside from Summon Monster. SM is really great but I don't see how you wouldn't have to be carried at low levels in order to get there. i read the binder guide but couldn't really understand how the class was going to be decent. Air Blast + Power Attack doesn't seem like that great of an ability; no Strength damage Touch Attack with possibly Power Attack. It works out to 2d6+6 at level 9. An Orc Barbarian does 1d12+12 at level 1.

True, you'd be better with Force Push from Ronove (Auto hit force damage 1d6+ bull Rush attempt from range). This is from level 1.

[alchemyprime]

I'm playing a level 2 binder right now. I switch between Linnel (homebrewed), Savnok and Malphas each day. Masterwork Full Plate has made me nigh untouchable in battle, and one little buff in the form of an item has made me into a zombie killing powerhouse.

I love my binder, but to be fair, our group has only a poorly optimized sorcerer (I'm helping him) and a healbot cleric. Alongside a TWF Ranger and a Monk.

Oh god.

I'm the highest tiered player there. Before I helped the sorc, he was a blaster. I turned him into a controller. My god they needed me.

[Beelzebub1111]

Which dragon magazine has Primus and Kas as vestiges? I can't seem to find it, myself.

[Optimystik]

True, you'd be better with Force Push from Ronove (Auto hit force damage 1d6+ bull Rush attempt from range). This is from level 1.

Ronove is a trap actually - you get no boost to your AC or additional armor proficiencies, so going into melee to use your IUS is not useful. Far Hand has its uses but the cooldown on the Bull Rush is not effective. If you succeed on your binding check with her you get to walk around grinning like a fool all day, and if you fail you end up moping like a loser AND you can't drink potions. Do not want!

A much better level 1 choice is Savnok. Full plate (which you are automatically proficient with) and DR 1/piercing is nigh-godly at low levels, and the abilities only get better as you increase. Not only that, but you can swap places with allies, making you great at protecting the fledgling casters. He is an excellent vestige for KotSS for that reason.

His influence isn't too bad either - you can't take your armor off (you were going to?) - just hope you don't have much swimming and climbing to do.

Aym is another decent choice. You get Improved Sunder, Medium Armor prof. and deal double damage to objects - get in there and smash up the baddies' weapons, holy symbol, component pouch, shield etc. and watch as your party cleans them up without trouble. If they hit you, they take 1d6 fire damage, which you yourself can deal as a touch attack.

Her influence is funny - give a coin to every dwarf you meet - oh, like you really needed all those coppers anyway.

[Person_Man]

Binder Handbook

Binder Strengths:
Flavorful: No one can accuse you of playing a bland character.
Versatile: Capable of fulfilling any role (meatshield, Skill Monkey, battlefield controller, blaster, etc), though not as well as a build that's dedicated to that role. By mid levels, you can even switch out a vestige at any time, allowing you to customize your abilities for a specific situation.
Unlimited Resources: Abilities are always on or refresh every 5 rounds.
Supernatural abilities: Can't be nerfed or countered by Dispel Magic, Anti-magic Field, Mage Slayer, etc.

Binder Weaknesses:
Complicated: Ridiculously so. There are a ton of combos, but it takes a very long time to grok them.
Mediocre BAB/AC/Hit Points: The most strait forward play style (walk up to things, hit them with Power Attack-ish feats, repeat) isn't particularly a good idea for the Binder. In particular, you lack any straitforward method to boost your damage output efficiently.
Charisma based: The suckiest attribute is your primary one. On the plus side, there's plenty of synergy with Fear effects and other Cha based classes.

[Starbuck_II]

Which dragon magazine has Primus and Kas as vestiges? I can't seem to find it, myself.

341 I was told by google.

Ronove is a trap actually - you get no boost to your AC or additional armor proficiencies, so going into melee to use your IUS is not useful. Far Hand has its uses but the cooldown on the Bull Rush is not effective. If you succeed on your binding check with her you get to walk around grinning like a fool all day, and if you fail you end up moping like a loser AND you can't drink potions. Do not want!

But at level 1 you have a auto hit 1d6 force damage that also bull rushes foes (rarely).
You don't go into melee: Far hand is ranged.

[Optimystik]

But at level 1 you have a auto hit 1d6 force damage that also bull rushes foes (rarely).
You don't go into melee: Far hand is ranged.

The bullrush is the 5 round cooldown power. So you knock the bugbear back, or one of the goblins, and then you've got nothing. (Once you use it, the entire hand shuts off, not just the Bull Rush function.)

Plus, it's Strength score is equal to your Binder Level. That's right, you have to get all the way to level 12 before it even gives you +1 on your check.

Leaving you a Truenamer Warrior in light armor because you didn't bind Savnok or Aym.

And again - no potions if you fail the check - that's everything from healing to barkskin - not good at low levels.

[Yuki Akuma]

Supernatural abilities: Can't be nerfed or countered by Dispel Magic, Anti-magic Field, Mage Slayer, etc.

...What?

Su abilities are still magical. Only Ex abilities work in an antimagic field.

[Sinfire Titan]

341 I was told by google.



But at level 1 you have a auto hit 1d6 force damage that also bull rushes foes (rarely).
You don't go into melee: Far hand is ranged.

Screw that, buy a Riding Dog or a Warhorse and get them to do the melee combat for you while you plink away with a Heavy Crossbow. The instant you can bind Paimon (sic), go to town. Optimystik is right on this one.

[Person_Man]

...What?

Su abilities are still magical. Only Ex abilities work in an antimagic field.

Whops, sorry. I meant SR. I forget sometimes that AMF effects pretty much everything.

[Thurbane]

Advice to the OP: Binders are truly awesome, and while I haven't got to play one (yet), I've studied them in some detail...

My advice: PLAY ONE! They are really a unique and fun character class. If you are worried about their power level, see if the DM will allow homebrewed vestiges - these can bump the power level significantly (warning: some of the ones I've read online are truly broken, so be careful).

One race I've found that has good syergy with the Binder is Hellbred (body apect). The bonus Devil Touched feats can help expand your durability.

Also, see if you can somehow wrangle a free Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency at lower levels, so that if you take the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC, the Weapon Focus you require won't suck as much.

[Optimystik]

Body Hellbred are indeed useful as Binders. Con bonus without a Cha penalty, and fairly flavorful. Plenty of Vestiges grant skill bonuses anyway, so it's not like you'll be really hurting for them.