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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    UglyPanda's Avatar

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    Default Ways to Screw Up Balance

    What are some of the ways you've found companies to screw up game balance and some common pitfalls?
    Please, do not say specific systems.

    Low impact flaws - When a flaw that usually doesn't come up often or is easily overcome happens to give character creation points.

    Uncommon style playtesting - The playtesters were clearly playing in a way that an ordinary person wouldn't play or that they assumed everyone would play.

    Rock flies through paper - The game is supposed to be balanced by Tactical Rock Paper Scissors. Too bad paper can't do its job right.

    Epic-level janitors - When a joke class or profession is made and the writers didn't let anyone in on it.

    Almighty janitor - When the developers overcompensate for said joke class in a splat book.

    All-powerful snowflakes - When a gamebreaker character option is supposed to be balanced by the GM restricting its availability. Said character proceeds to make everyone cry.

    Overly open to interpretation - When a rule or two is open enough to interpretation that it only ever benefits the fastest talker at the table.
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    They wouldn't dare: When unbalanced options are allowed because the designers are sure the players wouldn't actually use them.

    For my eyes only: When unbalanced options are created for use by the DM, but they're actually available to the players.

    Those two are closely related.

    JaronK

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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Stun Lock: When some characters are capable of rendering others completely helpless while they can act freely.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Rocket Tag: Combat comes down to who goes first, and there is little way to influence the outcome of battle beyond merely going first.

    Immunity or Death: Things get to the point where either you are immune to an attack, or it kills you outright, with little in-between (or, more generally, lacking a specific defense renders you helpless). In addition to all the problems of rocket tag, you add the problem that often the characters manage to survive but still can't do anything to influence a battle.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Too many heads When too many different people write splat books and don't consider options in other splat books written by other people.

    The sacred cow When the developers obviously favor one class or race as their favorite and give it more development time then other classes or races.

    Feature lock When additional features or entire new ways of using already existing character options are introduced rendering all previous options/features obsolete.

    At the wheel When new fiction is written about the game and the developers attempt to match the "new audience" and throw away old well loved game-play or character options.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by lsfreak View Post
    Rocket Tag: Combat comes down to who goes first, and there is little way to influence the outcome of battle beyond merely going first.
    Actually, this doesn't destroy balance at all, you just have to design for it. Shadowrun 3E is definitely rocket tag (a basic ganger with a high powered rifle could kill you if he got the drop on you), but it's still fun and balanced.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Recursion Designers fail to think about how combos can be used repeatedly, and the eventual results of doing so.

    Realism In the pursuit of verisimulatude, designers sometimes fall into the trap of attempting to model things realistically because they have a real-world analog, resulting in such things matching up poorly against other options without such a comparison.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Okay, I can give you that. But when the system isn't designed around being rocket tag, but ends up as it, it destroys the system.

    Identity Crisis: It's a well-written (or at least interesting) option for the players, but it goes against the design of the rest of the system. It emphasizes all the wrong things, such as being a jack-of-all-trades in a game that punishes non-specialization, or avoiding combat in a system that's built entirely around it.

    The Unthinking Editor: The author designs a gameplay option. The editor or publisher leaves out a crucial part of the option, or alters it without consideration. Results range from nonsensical, underpowered options to hilariously overpowered ones.
    Last edited by lsfreak; 2010-02-03 at 04:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Actually, this doesn't destroy balance at all, you just have to design for it. Shadowrun 3E is definitely rocket tag (a basic ganger with a high powered rifle could kill you if he got the drop on you), but it's still fun and balanced.

    JaronK
    SR3 is far from the rocket tag described above. Going first has the advantage in any system but characters should always be able to effect the combat if they aren't going first. I believe the point of "rocket tag" is that the system shouldn't be "Go first or die/lose".

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Let the players sort out our mistakes - Rules such as d6ing to settle differences of opinion simply mean that whoever is the most opinionated, regardless of the ridiculousness involved, statistically gets the most advantage. *cough* Games workshop.

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Slow Start Option - when some classes/options are intentionally weaker at low levels, but make up for it by being much stronger than the alternatives once you gain enough experience.

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    OVER 9000! Designers fail to think about how combos can be used repeatedly, and the eventual results of doing so.
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostfang View Post
    SR3 is far from the rocket tag described above. Going first has the advantage in any system but characters should always be able to effect the combat if they aren't going first. I believe the point of "rocket tag" is that the system shouldn't be "Go first or die/lose".
    I dunno, from what I've seen if you go first in SR3, you win. If you're hiding and spot the enemy, then spend a few rounds aiming, and finally take the shot without them seeing you, they're almost certainly dead no matter who they are. Consider a basic gangland sniper, Rifles 4, with a cheap hunting rifle (the one that does 9S) with Smartlink 2. That's a really basic enemy using very basic gear. If he aims for two rounds and fires at a pumped up super powerful PC, he's rolling 8 dice with a target number 2 while doing a called shot to bypass armor. Average case he gets 7 successes, and the PC can't dodge (due to not knowing what's happening) and must roll body+combat pool against a target number 9. If he gets less than 6 successes on that (he'll probably average 1 or 2) he's taken a deadly wound ... and the ganger gets a second shot before anyone else can act. That's basic rocket tag, when a low level mook can kill even the toughest enemy just by hiding and then going first.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Turn to page 179 silly. When critical options for your class, or other rules, are deeply embedded within another book, in the middle of 100 other rules, with no reference to them whatsoever. This is my main gripe, really. The rest I work around a bit better... once I find the rules for it and pull some tricks.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-02-03 at 05:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Rule Noise: When the shear quantity of rules or ways in which those rules interacts causes players to either ignore half of them or simply forget/overlook key aspects of the rules.

    The Dupe Option: Where balance is perceived to be maintained due to underpar options being made available, regardless of the fact that anyone who actually understands the game will avoid these options like the plague. Also known as the The Noob Choice or Flavour Over Function Failure.

    Rewards For Winning: Where a purely endgame feature completely breaks the game by rendering several rules moot or providing players with reusable "I Win" buttons. Also covers Designergasms: where the designer thought something was so cool and so unlikely to be obtained that it's power wasn't correctly balanced to the rest of the game, and then allowed it to be readily accessible anyway.
    Last edited by Reaper_Monkey; 2010-02-03 at 05:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Exponential Abilities
    When designers fail to realize that player WILL exploit poorly written extrapolation rules.
    (see: M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.)
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    Munchkin's Universe-shaking Nondirectional
    Cosmic Hyperluminal Kinetoelectromagnetic
    Interference Neurodisrupter (M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.)
    (+5190%): Toxic Attack 1 point (Affects
    Insubstantial, +20%; Area Effect,
    2475880078570760549798248448 yards (about 74
    gigaparsecs), +4550%; Cosmic, Irresistible attack,
    +300%; Emanation, -20%; Rapid Fire, RoF 300,
    +300%; Selective Area, +20%; Underwater, +20%)
    [53].
    Notes: It's a cosmic attack, literally. Pulses of cosmic
    energy that radiate from the attacker (reaching 74
    gigaparsecs in a flat second) burn out the neural
    system of living beings in the affected area, and
    remember that even the edge of our universe is
    "merely" about 10 gigaparsecs away from Earth. Also
    note that an Area Effect attack with Emanation
    involves no to-hit roll and simply affects anyone in
    the area. Furthermore, it allows victims only to dive
    for cover, and actually there's no effective cover since
    this Cosmic, Irresistible attack ignores DR. In
    conclusion, the user can attack every living thing in
    our entire universe, with 1 point of damage, 300
    times per second. Have fun. 53 points.
    Modifying: To kill nonliving foes as well, and to
    breach Cosmic or Hardened DR, define the attack as
    "Munchkin's ... Disintegrator" (M.U.N.C.H.K.I.D.),
    by changing the underlying Toxic Attack to
    Corrosion Attack. This will gradually defeat any
    amount of DR. M.U.N.C.H.K.I.D. costs 159 points
    because of the base cost 3 of Corrosion Attack 1 point.
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    Last edited by Tinydwarfman; 2010-02-03 at 07:12 PM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    The Rich Get Richer and the Poor Get Poorer:This happens when some classes get new and creative options every new level while other other lose option due to having to specialize.

    Poor Man's X: This is when a class's abilities is always second best to other classes of the same role.

    Kicking A Class When He's Down: This is like the above but where it's a class not of the same role that is better at the classes role then it is.

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    I Am Not What I Am: The classes, archetypes, power sets, options, or whatever were designed with clear roles in mind. Unfortunately, those roles either don't actually fit into the system, or simply aren't covered by the intended options. A related problem is when an option set which is not intended for a certain role takes over that role anyway.

    The GM Will Handle It: One ability is left far more open-ended than other, similar abilities, with a half-hearted clause about "GM adjudication" thrown in. Some GMs are as good at balance as (we like to hope that) designers are. Some are not.

    Ignore It, It's Just... Wait, What? It's ambiguous where the fluff ends and the crunch begins. There are many levels of this, but it always comes down to "well, that's what the book says, but what do the rules say?"

    He Deserves It More Than You: Anything which intentionally puts characters on a significantly different power level for an extended period of time. Can be uneven rates of advancement, suggested penalties for character death, or one of many other forms. Related to Slow Start Option mentioned above.

    You Should Have Thought of That a Long Time Ago: When early character decisions can doom a character's effectiveness and/or fun quotient for a long time, with little or no recourse in the as-written rules.

    We Encourage Adversity: Any system which actively rewards the GM for harming or killing the players. Almost inevitably invites power trips, adversarial mentality, and a loss of fun.

    All-or-Nothing Player Bone: When an option, either a tactic used by an enemy or a flaw voluntarily undertaken by a player, risks totally demolishing a character and/or their effectiveness, or else does nothing noticeable, with no middle ground. The option is either unnoticed or overwhelming.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2010-02-04 at 02:10 AM.
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Knife Edge: When a fight either goes one way or the other, no middle ground. Whoever wins does so with little cost to themselves. An inevitable result of Stun Lock but can occur without it as well.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Knife Edge: When a fight either goes one way or the other, no middle ground. Whoever wins does so with little cost to themselves. An inevitable result of Stun Lock but can occur without it as well.
    In relation to this: Blade's Edge: When every fight goes to the wire, death is frequent and often arbitrary, and no one survives longer than two engagements. Inevitably leads to everyone playing the most survivable class and taking the options that increase survival rates while discarding everything else.

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Well, if it's powerful, that means it's worth money. - Expanded material is higher-powered as an incentive to buy it.

    Balance? We need a splatbook by Monday! - Designers hastily design material to meet harsh deadlines without regarding game balance.

    Lead designer credits: Intern, Intern, and hobo who lives behind the office - Too many authors are given "canon" authority to write official material with little to no policy on what they can put out.

    You got variant rules in my expanded material! You got expanded material in my variant rules! - Many different kinds of new content are developed for the system with no regard to how they might interact.

    Game system repair service, only 49.99! - The company fixes or rebalances the system by releasing yet another book you have to buy.
    Last edited by Rixx; 2010-02-04 at 02:43 AM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    The Same but MORE - Whether intentional or not, an option is printed that is identical to another option, but BETTER.

    N different ways to do X - Not realizing a particular option already exists, an author adds it in his splatbook. The result is that a player can pick up multiple copies of the same ability/buff/power and have them stack just because "technically" they have different names.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Stun Lock: When some characters are capable of rendering others completely helpless while they can act freely.
    Actually a Stun lock is effective even if it also locks your Character. While you lock the boss you can have your mates finish him.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Stun Lock
    There's really two main issues with stun locks:
    1) If a character can completely prevent all of a target's actions while still dealing even a minimal rate of damage to the target, that character can win almost any 1-on-1 fight.

    2) If a character can completely prevent all of a target's actions, even though that target is supposed to be equivalent to more than one character, it renders many-on-1 fights absolutely trivial.

    The first may not be a big issue. In 4e, for example, a single-target stun-lock build isn't *too* bad in the usual 5-on-5 fights, because that one character is occupying his time dealing with 1 enemy, leaving everyone else to deal with 4-on-4. Where it becomes a real balance problem is type 2, i.e. a party of 5 against a solo.

    Other systems may allow stun-locking at the cost of damage output or other such trade-offs. It definitely has the potential to cause balance issues, but it is not necessarily a game imbalance in and of itself.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Rules such as d6ing to settle differences of opinion simply mean that whoever is the most opinionated, regardless of the ridiculousness involved, statistically gets the most advantage. *cough* Games workshop.
    That's not a rule, per se, in the Warhammer games. Just a suggestion for keeping the flow of the game going in friendly games.

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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge of Dreams View Post
    There's really two main issues with stun locks:
    1) If a character can completely prevent all of a target's actions while still dealing even a minimal rate of damage to the target, that character can win almost any 1-on-1 fight.

    2) If a character can completely prevent all of a target's actions, even though that target is supposed to be equivalent to more than one character, it renders many-on-1 fights absolutely trivial.

    The first may not be a big issue. In 4e, for example, a single-target stun-lock build isn't *too* bad in the usual 5-on-5 fights, because that one character is occupying his time dealing with 1 enemy, leaving everyone else to deal with 4-on-4. Where it becomes a real balance problem is type 2, i.e. a party of 5 against a solo.

    Other systems may allow stun-locking at the cost of damage output or other such trade-offs. It definitely has the potential to cause balance issues, but it is not necessarily a game imbalance in and of itself.
    I was also referring to things like 3e Time Stop or sufficiently cheesed Quickened Color Spray. Multi-target stunlocks are ALWAYS game-breaking.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Short, but Violent (Hit hard Die Young):
    A related phenonmon to gun tag
    as [N]PC's increase in power there damage increases, but there stamina stays the same. Eventaully powerful enemies can take out thePC's in one hit, and the PC's can do likewise.
    this resualts in Gun Tag at higher levals, even where it didn't exist at lower ones

    It's caused by realism - a human really don'tn't gain much more ability to take damages with training/experience. he does get much better at dishing it out though (learns to be more accurate say)
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    The Unusable Drawback - When there is some supposed drawback or flaw that is so negative or crippling that it is completely ignored and results in the character becoming overpowered. The thing I think of most for this are the level limits for non-humans in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D
    Last edited by Sergeantbrother; 2010-02-04 at 05:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeantbrother View Post
    The Unusable Drawback See also The Flavoured Drawback
    The Flavoured Drawback: When there is some drawback or flaw that is only included because it makes sense due to the style and flavour of that which possesses it. Specifically when this drawback is included without any care as to how that pigeon holes the options available and often without balancing it with other desirable features. See also Damned Knight's Code and The Inevitably Fallen Paladin.
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    Default Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    I dunno, from what I've seen if you go first in SR3, you win. If you're hiding and spot the enemy, then spend a few rounds aiming, and finally take the shot without them seeing you, they're almost certainly dead no matter who they are. Consider a basic gangland sniper, Rifles 4, with a cheap hunting rifle (the one that does 9S) with Smartlink 2. That's a really basic enemy using very basic gear. If he aims for two rounds and fires at a pumped up super powerful PC, he's rolling 8 dice with a target number 2 while doing a called shot to bypass armor. Average case he gets 7 successes, and the PC can't dodge (due to not knowing what's happening) and must roll body+combat pool against a target number 9. If he gets less than 6 successes on that (he'll probably average 1 or 2) he's taken a deadly wound ... and the ganger gets a second shot before anyone else can act. That's basic rocket tag, when a low level mook can kill even the toughest enemy just by hiding and then going first.

    JaronK
    Off Topic, since this thread isn't about SR3: You are making several assumptions here. The two primary ones being that a basic grunt has the ability to hide unseen while aiming at the party for several rounds while they are stationary and do not detect him - and that an aimed shot actually allows him to bypass armor (while sounding reasonable, that isn't actually covered by the rules - and if you chose to go with that, what you basically achieve is to force everyone to wear helmets, and reduce pretty much all armor values to ... is it 2?).

    Also, there are some assumptions about the level of training and gear available to the basic slumland ganger.

    In my book, the basic grunt will make mistakes. He will hide in some substandard place, where lens flare allows the players to roll perception prior to his shot. He also will be nervous, and fail to wait for the required two rounds before firing. Either that - or I'm failing as a GM, because snipers are basically equal to 'rocks fall - everyone dies.'

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