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Thread: Ways to Screw Up Balance
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2010-02-03, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Ways to Screw Up Balance
What are some of the ways you've found companies to screw up game balance and some common pitfalls?
Please, do not say specific systems.
Low impact flaws - When a flaw that usually doesn't come up often or is easily overcome happens to give character creation points.
Uncommon style playtesting - The playtesters were clearly playing in a way that an ordinary person wouldn't play or that they assumed everyone would play.
Rock flies through paper - The game is supposed to be balanced by Tactical Rock Paper Scissors. Too bad paper can't do its job right.
Epic-level janitors - When a joke class or profession is made and the writers didn't let anyone in on it.
Almighty janitor - When the developers overcompensate for said joke class in a splat book.
All-powerful snowflakes - When a gamebreaker character option is supposed to be balanced by the GM restricting its availability. Said character proceeds to make everyone cry.
Overly open to interpretation - When a rule or two is open enough to interpretation that it only ever benefits the fastest talker at the table.Avatar by Serpentine
If, at any point, I write something that appears humorous, just chalk it up to your twisted imagination.Spoiler
Winnie the Pooh by Sneak.
Fishing by Dr. Bath.
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2010-02-03, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
They wouldn't dare: When unbalanced options are allowed because the designers are sure the players wouldn't actually use them.
For my eyes only: When unbalanced options are created for use by the DM, but they're actually available to the players.
Those two are closely related.
JaronK
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2010-02-03, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-03, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Rocket Tag: Combat comes down to who goes first, and there is little way to influence the outcome of battle beyond merely going first.
Immunity or Death: Things get to the point where either you are immune to an attack, or it kills you outright, with little in-between (or, more generally, lacking a specific defense renders you helpless). In addition to all the problems of rocket tag, you add the problem that often the characters manage to survive but still can't do anything to influence a battle.Proudly without a signature for 5 years. Wait... crap.
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2010-02-03, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Too many heads When too many different people write splat books and don't consider options in other splat books written by other people.
The sacred cow When the developers obviously favor one class or race as their favorite and give it more development time then other classes or races.
Feature lock When additional features or entire new ways of using already existing character options are introduced rendering all previous options/features obsolete.
At the wheel When new fiction is written about the game and the developers attempt to match the "new audience" and throw away old well loved game-play or character options.
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2010-02-03, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
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2010-02-03, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Recursion Designers fail to think about how combos can be used repeatedly, and the eventual results of doing so.
Realism In the pursuit of verisimulatude, designers sometimes fall into the trap of attempting to model things realistically because they have a real-world analog, resulting in such things matching up poorly against other options without such a comparison.
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2010-02-03, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Okay, I can give you that. But when the system isn't designed around being rocket tag, but ends up as it, it destroys the system.
Identity Crisis: It's a well-written (or at least interesting) option for the players, but it goes against the design of the rest of the system. It emphasizes all the wrong things, such as being a jack-of-all-trades in a game that punishes non-specialization, or avoiding combat in a system that's built entirely around it.
The Unthinking Editor: The author designs a gameplay option. The editor or publisher leaves out a crucial part of the option, or alters it without consideration. Results range from nonsensical, underpowered options to hilariously overpowered ones.Last edited by lsfreak; 2010-02-03 at 04:26 PM.
Proudly without a signature for 5 years. Wait... crap.
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2010-02-03, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
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2010-02-03, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Let the players sort out our mistakes - Rules such as d6ing to settle differences of opinion simply mean that whoever is the most opinionated, regardless of the ridiculousness involved, statistically gets the most advantage. *cough* Games workshop.
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2010-02-03, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Slow Start Option - when some classes/options are intentionally weaker at low levels, but make up for it by being much stronger than the alternatives once you gain enough experience.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
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2010-02-03, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-03, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
I dunno, from what I've seen if you go first in SR3, you win. If you're hiding and spot the enemy, then spend a few rounds aiming, and finally take the shot without them seeing you, they're almost certainly dead no matter who they are. Consider a basic gangland sniper, Rifles 4, with a cheap hunting rifle (the one that does 9S) with Smartlink 2. That's a really basic enemy using very basic gear. If he aims for two rounds and fires at a pumped up super powerful PC, he's rolling 8 dice with a target number 2 while doing a called shot to bypass armor. Average case he gets 7 successes, and the PC can't dodge (due to not knowing what's happening) and must roll body+combat pool against a target number 9. If he gets less than 6 successes on that (he'll probably average 1 or 2) he's taken a deadly wound ... and the ganger gets a second shot before anyone else can act. That's basic rocket tag, when a low level mook can kill even the toughest enemy just by hiding and then going first.
JaronK
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2010-02-03, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Turn to page 179 silly. When critical options for your class, or other rules, are deeply embedded within another book, in the middle of 100 other rules, with no reference to them whatsoever. This is my main gripe, really. The rest I work around a bit better... once I find the rules for it and pull some tricks.
Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-02-03 at 05:12 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
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2010-02-03, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Rule Noise: When the shear quantity of rules or ways in which those rules interacts causes players to either ignore half of them or simply forget/overlook key aspects of the rules.
The Dupe Option: Where balance is perceived to be maintained due to underpar options being made available, regardless of the fact that anyone who actually understands the game will avoid these options like the plague. Also known as the The Noob Choice or Flavour Over Function Failure.
Rewards For Winning: Where a purely endgame feature completely breaks the game by rendering several rules moot or providing players with reusable "I Win" buttons. Also covers Designergasms: where the designer thought something was so cool and so unlikely to be obtained that it's power wasn't correctly balanced to the rest of the game, and then allowed it to be readily accessible anyway.Last edited by Reaper_Monkey; 2010-02-03 at 05:25 PM.
Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
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2010-02-03, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Exponential Abilities
When designers fail to realize that player WILL exploit poorly written extrapolation rules.
(see: M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.)SpoilerMunchkin's Universe-shaking Nondirectional
Cosmic Hyperluminal Kinetoelectromagnetic
Interference Neurodisrupter (M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.)
(+5190%): Toxic Attack 1 point (Affects
Insubstantial, +20%; Area Effect,
2475880078570760549798248448 yards (about 74
gigaparsecs), +4550%; Cosmic, Irresistible attack,
+300%; Emanation, -20%; Rapid Fire, RoF 300,
+300%; Selective Area, +20%; Underwater, +20%)
[53].
Notes: It's a cosmic attack, literally. Pulses of cosmic
energy that radiate from the attacker (reaching 74
gigaparsecs in a flat second) burn out the neural
system of living beings in the affected area, and
remember that even the edge of our universe is
"merely" about 10 gigaparsecs away from Earth. Also
note that an Area Effect attack with Emanation
involves no to-hit roll and simply affects anyone in
the area. Furthermore, it allows victims only to dive
for cover, and actually there's no effective cover since
this Cosmic, Irresistible attack ignores DR. In
conclusion, the user can attack every living thing in
our entire universe, with 1 point of damage, 300
times per second. Have fun. 53 points.
Modifying: To kill nonliving foes as well, and to
breach Cosmic or Hardened DR, define the attack as
"Munchkin's ... Disintegrator" (M.U.N.C.H.K.I.D.),
by changing the underlying Toxic Attack to
Corrosion Attack. This will gradually defeat any
amount of DR. M.U.N.C.H.K.I.D. costs 159 points
because of the base cost 3 of Corrosion Attack 1 point.
Submitted by Gurps Fan.Last edited by Tinydwarfman; 2010-02-03 at 07:12 PM.
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2010-02-03, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
The Rich Get Richer and the Poor Get Poorer:This happens when some classes get new and creative options every new level while other other lose option due to having to specialize.
Poor Man's X: This is when a class's abilities is always second best to other classes of the same role.
Kicking A Class When He's Down: This is like the above but where it's a class not of the same role that is better at the classes role then it is.
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2010-02-04, 02:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
I Am Not What I Am: The classes, archetypes, power sets, options, or whatever were designed with clear roles in mind. Unfortunately, those roles either don't actually fit into the system, or simply aren't covered by the intended options. A related problem is when an option set which is not intended for a certain role takes over that role anyway.
The GM Will Handle It: One ability is left far more open-ended than other, similar abilities, with a half-hearted clause about "GM adjudication" thrown in. Some GMs are as good at balance as (we like to hope that) designers are. Some are not.
Ignore It, It's Just... Wait, What? It's ambiguous where the fluff ends and the crunch begins. There are many levels of this, but it always comes down to "well, that's what the book says, but what do the rules say?"
He Deserves It More Than You: Anything which intentionally puts characters on a significantly different power level for an extended period of time. Can be uneven rates of advancement, suggested penalties for character death, or one of many other forms. Related to Slow Start Option mentioned above.
You Should Have Thought of That a Long Time Ago: When early character decisions can doom a character's effectiveness and/or fun quotient for a long time, with little or no recourse in the as-written rules.
We Encourage Adversity: Any system which actively rewards the GM for harming or killing the players. Almost inevitably invites power trips, adversarial mentality, and a loss of fun.
All-or-Nothing Player Bone: When an option, either a tactic used by an enemy or a flaw voluntarily undertaken by a player, risks totally demolishing a character and/or their effectiveness, or else does nothing noticeable, with no middle ground. The option is either unnoticed or overwhelming.Last edited by Zaq; 2010-02-04 at 02:10 AM.
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2010-02-04, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Knife Edge: When a fight either goes one way or the other, no middle ground. Whoever wins does so with little cost to themselves. An inevitable result of Stun Lock but can occur without it as well.
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2010-02-04, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
In relation to this: Blade's Edge: When every fight goes to the wire, death is frequent and often arbitrary, and no one survives longer than two engagements. Inevitably leads to everyone playing the most survivable class and taking the options that increase survival rates while discarding everything else.
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2010-02-04, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Well, if it's powerful, that means it's worth money. - Expanded material is higher-powered as an incentive to buy it.
Balance? We need a splatbook by Monday! - Designers hastily design material to meet harsh deadlines without regarding game balance.
Lead designer credits: Intern, Intern, and hobo who lives behind the office - Too many authors are given "canon" authority to write official material with little to no policy on what they can put out.
You got variant rules in my expanded material! You got expanded material in my variant rules! - Many different kinds of new content are developed for the system with no regard to how they might interact.
Game system repair service, only 49.99! - The company fixes or rebalances the system by releasing yet another book you have to buy.Last edited by Rixx; 2010-02-04 at 02:43 AM.
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2010-02-04, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
The Same but MORE - Whether intentional or not, an option is printed that is identical to another option, but BETTER.
N different ways to do X - Not realizing a particular option already exists, an author adds it in his splatbook. The result is that a player can pick up multiple copies of the same ability/buff/power and have them stack just because "technically" they have different names.I spent an hour on the edge of dreams,
I walked between the worlds,
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2010-02-04, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-04, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Stun Lock
1) If a character can completely prevent all of a target's actions while still dealing even a minimal rate of damage to the target, that character can win almost any 1-on-1 fight.
2) If a character can completely prevent all of a target's actions, even though that target is supposed to be equivalent to more than one character, it renders many-on-1 fights absolutely trivial.
The first may not be a big issue. In 4e, for example, a single-target stun-lock build isn't *too* bad in the usual 5-on-5 fights, because that one character is occupying his time dealing with 1 enemy, leaving everyone else to deal with 4-on-4. Where it becomes a real balance problem is type 2, i.e. a party of 5 against a solo.
Other systems may allow stun-locking at the cost of damage output or other such trade-offs. It definitely has the potential to cause balance issues, but it is not necessarily a game imbalance in and of itself.I spent an hour on the edge of dreams,
I walked between the worlds,
and when I woke I never knew
to which side I had fallen
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2010-02-04, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-04, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
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2010-02-04, 04:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Short, but Violent (Hit hard Die Young):
A related phenonmon to gun tag
as [N]PC's increase in power there damage increases, but there stamina stays the same. Eventaully powerful enemies can take out thePC's in one hit, and the PC's can do likewise.
this resualts in Gun Tag at higher levals, even where it didn't exist at lower ones
It's caused by realism - a human really don'tn't gain much more ability to take damages with training/experience. he does get much better at dishing it out though (learns to be more accurate say)There is nothing on earth that we share; it is either Valjean or Javert!
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2010-02-04, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
The Unusable Drawback - When there is some supposed drawback or flaw that is so negative or crippling that it is completely ignored and results in the character becoming overpowered. The thing I think of most for this are the level limits for non-humans in 1st and 2nd edition AD&D
Last edited by Sergeantbrother; 2010-02-04 at 05:04 AM.
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2010-02-04, 05:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
The Flavoured Drawback: When there is some drawback or flaw that is only included because it makes sense due to the style and flavour of that which possesses it. Specifically when this drawback is included without any care as to how that pigeon holes the options available and often without balancing it with other desirable features. See also Damned Knight's Code and The Inevitably Fallen Paladin.
Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
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2010-02-04, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Screw Up Balance
Off Topic, since this thread isn't about SR3: You are making several assumptions here. The two primary ones being that a basic grunt has the ability to hide unseen while aiming at the party for several rounds while they are stationary and do not detect him - and that an aimed shot actually allows him to bypass armor (while sounding reasonable, that isn't actually covered by the rules - and if you chose to go with that, what you basically achieve is to force everyone to wear helmets, and reduce pretty much all armor values to ... is it 2?).
Also, there are some assumptions about the level of training and gear available to the basic slumland ganger.
In my book, the basic grunt will make mistakes. He will hide in some substandard place, where lens flare allows the players to roll perception prior to his shot. He also will be nervous, and fail to wait for the required two rounds before firing. Either that - or I'm failing as a GM, because snipers are basically equal to 'rocks fall - everyone dies.'