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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Melayl's Avatar

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    Nov 2007
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    Default Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    New Mana-based Magic System for 3.5

    I'm not a fan of Vancian casting. I created this to try to mimic the casting in various novels I like.

    Part 1: Base spell-level cost conversion

    Much of this is a conversion based on the XPH, which is a simple, effective, and balanced system. I’m going to try to keep this system as good.

    Few changes will be needed for any of the spells. Any needed changes should just fall under how they scale. The system should be easily adaptable to any new spells.

    We start by taking from the XPH the PP Cost/level:

    {table=header]
    Level:
    |
    Cost:
    0
    |
    0/1
    1
    |
    1
    2
    |
    3
    3
    |
    5
    4
    |
    7
    5
    |
    9
    6
    |
    11
    7
    |
    13
    8
    |
    15
    9
    |
    17
    [/table]

    We multiply by 4 (you'll see why later) to convert to mana points (MP) to get:

    {table=header]
    Level:
    |
    Cost:
    0
    |
    1
    1
    |
    4
    2
    |
    12
    3
    |
    20
    4
    |
    28
    5
    |
    36
    6
    |
    44
    7
    |
    52
    8
    |
    60
    9
    |
    68
    [/table]
    Thus, a 1st level spell would cost 4 MP, etc.

    Spells no longer automatically scale. Scaling cost (per extra level of power) is:

    {table=header]
    Level:
    |
    Cost:
    0
    |
    N/A
    1
    |
    1
    2
    |
    3
    3
    |
    5
    4
    |
    7
    5
    |
    9
    6
    |
    11
    7
    |
    13
    8
    |
    15
    9
    |
    17
    [/table]


    By this, a wiz/sorc casting Magic Missile (a 1st level spell) at 1st level would spend 4 MP. Cast at 9th level, fully scaled, he would spend 8 MP (base cost of 4 MP +1 for each of the scaled levels – 3, 5, 7, 9).

    Casting Fireball (a 3rd level spell), at 5th level (minimum required caster level) would cost 20 MP (for 5d6 hpd). Cast at 10th level, fully scaled, it would cost 45 MP (base cost of 20 MP +5 for each scaled level – 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) for the same wiz/sorc.

    How this works with the Cure Spells is a little more difficult. We either have to allow automatic scaling (since it adds only +1 or 2/level up to a certain maximum), make them spend +1/extra scaled hp (or more, depending upon the level of the Cure spell), or change the Cure spells to add extra die (d4?) rather than just extra hp and scale accordingly. My inclination would be to add extra die (d4 per d8 of the spell), but it might make the higher-level Cure spells seem redundant (unless you just add the extra base amount healed to each spell for scaling – potentially making them much more powerful). Do whatever feels right for your group.

    Shield of Faith (cleric 1) would cost 4 MP at 1st level for a +2 bonus. Cast at 18th level (max scaled), it would cost 7 MP (base cost 4 MP +1/scaled level).

    Not being completely familiar with all the spells, there may be others requiring slight modification (like the Cure spells did). I’d appreciate hearing how your group chooses to modify them.

    Metamagic feats simply change the spell’s cost to that of the appropriate level. For example, Empower Spell used on the above Fireball would make the Fireball’s cost that of a 5th level, rather than a 3rd level spell (including scaling costs). In theory, this could make the cost of the spell exceed that of a 9th level spell (if allowed in your game). Simply add 8 to the cost of the spell and 4 to the scaling cost for each level beyond 9.

    Why 4 Mana Points (MP) instead of 1? Multiple reasons. First, scaling costs seemed more reasonable to me at ¼ of the spell’s cost than the psionic equivalent. Second, it makes my changes to Specialists seem better. Third, I wanted to.

    Of course, to implement these changes, we need to change the base classes a bit.


    Part 2: Base spellcasting classes

    Basically, I calculated the MP/level for each class by converting total spells/day for each level into MP by the MP cost/level table (pain-in-the-neck math).

    I would recommend that all spellcasters become spontaneous spellcasters. Many of my changes will reflect this opinion. All spellcasters must rest for 8 hours to fully recharge their mana. You may choose to allow your spellcasters to regain a portion of their total mana if the rest for a portion of 8 hours. All spellcasters must have a primary stat score of 10 + a spell’s level to cast that spell (just like before).

    Wizard/Sorcerer (Mage)

    Wizard and Sorcerer are really no longer two separate classes. They are the same class of arcane casters, merely differentiated by which stat they use. Wizards use their INT to determine bonus mana, spells known, DC, etc. Sorcerers use CHA. You can keep all that nonsense about draconic heritage for the sorcerer if you really want to…

    Bonus mana is equal to Stat mod times twice their level.

    A caster gains access to a number of 0-level spells equal to ½ their Stat mod per level (minimum 1/level).

    Maximum number of spells known is equal to their Stat mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. (I’d probably do this for psions, too.) See the table below for maximum spell level known. I’ve included a list of the converted cost for Psions for comparison.

    Mages must still be taught their spells, or learn them from books or scrolls, or create them themselves.

    My suggestion would be that spells requiring more than 30 minutes of casting time, and all symbols, glyphs, and other such inscribed spells be designated as “book” spells. These spells are so intricate or complicated that they require a “spellbook” as a guide – they cannot be cast without being read from a book, and as such do not count against the maximum number of spells known (you must still pay the MP cost, however). If on a magic scroll, they still take the full casting time, but require no MP expenditure (the scroll is destroyed in the process, of course).

    Specialists: A mage may specialize in one school of magic. All spells cast from this school cost ¾ the normal amount of mana (some rounding up may be required for scaled spells). They still pick 2 prohibited schools (1 with Divination). Your DM may give you the option to cast spells from one of these schools at double (or more) the normal mana cost.

    Familiars: A mage now has another good reason to gain a familiar: extra mana. A familiar grants a mage extra mana equal to the mage’s Stat mod per level. If the familiar is killed, the mage immediately loses mana equal to the amount the familiar granted him, in addition to the other penalties associated with familiar death.


    {table=header]
    Level
    |
    Wizard/Sorcerer MP Per Level
    |
    Wizard/Sorcerer Max Spell Level Known
    |
    Psion book and (converted cost)
    1
    |
    17
    |
    1st
    |
    2(8)
    2
    |
    22
    |
    1st
    |
    6(24)
    3
    |
    26
    |
    2nd
    |
    11(44)
    4
    |
    66
    |
    2nd
    |
    17(68)
    5
    |
    78
    |
    3rd
    |
    25(100)
    6
    |
    150
    |
    3rd
    |
    35(140)
    7
    |
    162
    |
    4th
    |
    46(184)
    8
    |
    286
    |
    4th
    |
    58(232)
    9
    |
    334
    |
    5th
    |
    72(288)
    10
    |
    470
    |
    5th
    |
    88(352)
    11
    |
    534
    |
    6th
    |
    106(424)
    12
    |
    702
    |
    6th
    |
    126(504)
    13
    |
    782
    |
    7th
    |
    147(588)
    14
    |
    982
    |
    7th
    |
    170(680)
    15
    |
    1078
    |
    8th
    |
    195(780)
    16
    |
    1310
    |
    8th
    |
    221(884)
    17
    |
    1422
    |
    9th
    |
    250(1000)
    18
    |
    1686
    |
    9th
    |
    280(1120)
    19
    |
    1814
    |
    9th
    |
    311(1244)
    20
    |
    1950
    |
    9th
    |
    343(1372)
    [/table]

    As we can see, the Mage gets quite a bit more casting power than the Psion. We may have to edit that down a bit. Maybe even just copy/paste the Psion amount.

    Cleric

    Clerics still use their WIS to determine all of the important aspects of their spells. Bonus mana is equal to WIS mod times twice their level.

    A cleric has access to a number of 0-level spells equal to ½ of their WIS mod per level (min 1/level).

    Maximum number of spells known is equal to their Stat mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. See the table below for maximum spell level known. (I’d probably do this for psions, too.)

    Clerics know 1 Domain spell per Domain per Spell level. Domain spells may only be cast with Domain MP. Domain MP can only be used to cast Domain spells.

    Clerics lean their spells directly from their deity, but may also learn them from other clerics or from books or scrolls. Change this as you see fit for your campaign.



    {table=header]
    Level
    |
    Cleric MP Per Level
    |
    Maximum Spell Level Known
    |
    Domain MP Per Level
    1
    |
    7
    |
    1st
    |
    4
    2
    |
    12
    |
    1st
    |
    4
    3
    |
    24
    |
    2nd
    |
    16
    4
    |
    41
    |
    2nd
    |
    16
    5
    |
    61
    |
    3rd
    |
    36
    6
    |
    73
    |
    3rd
    |
    36
    7
    |
    126
    |
    4th
    |
    64
    8
    |
    174
    |
    4th
    |
    64
    9
    |
    222
    |
    5th
    |
    100
    10
    |
    286
    |
    5th
    |
    100
    11
    |
    356
    |
    6th
    |
    144
    12
    |
    434
    |
    6th
    |
    144
    13
    |
    526
    |
    7th
    |
    196
    14
    |
    622
    |
    7th
    |
    196
    15
    |
    738
    |
    8th
    |
    256
    16
    |
    850
    |
    8th
    |
    256
    17
    |
    990
    |
    9th
    |
    324
    18
    |
    1118
    |
    9th
    |
    324
    19
    |
    1274
    |
    9th
    |
    324
    20
    |
    1402
    |
    9th
    |
    324
    [/table]

    Druid

    Druids still use their WIS to determine all of the important aspects of their spells. Bonus mana is equal to WIS mod times twice their level.

    A druid has access to a number of 0-level spells equal to ½ of their WIS mod per level (min 1/level).

    Maximum number of spells known is equal to their Stat mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. See the table below for maximum spell level known. (I’d probably do this for psions, too.)

    {table=header]
    Level
    |
    Druid MP Per Level
    |
    Maximum Spell Level Known
    1
    |
    7
    |
    1st
    2
    |
    12
    |
    1st
    3
    |
    24
    |
    2nd
    4
    |
    41
    |
    2nd
    5
    |
    61
    |
    3rd
    6
    |
    73
    |
    3rd
    7
    |
    126
    |
    4th
    8
    |
    174
    |
    4th
    9
    |
    222
    |
    5th
    10
    |
    286
    |
    5th
    11
    |
    356
    |
    6th
    12
    |
    434
    |
    6th
    13
    |
    526
    |
    7th
    14
    |
    622
    |
    7th
    15
    |
    738
    |
    8th
    16
    |
    850
    |
    8th
    17
    |
    990
    |
    9th
    18
    |
    1118
    |
    9th
    19
    |
    1274
    |
    9th
    20
    |
    1402
    |
    9th
    [/table]


    Bard

    Bards still use their CHA to determine all of the important aspects of their spells. Bonus mana is equal to CHA mod times twice their level.

    Bards begin knowing a number of 0-level spells equal to their CHA mod (minimum 1). They gain 1 every 4 levels thereafter.

    Maximum number of spells known is equal to their ½ their CHA mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. See the table below for maximum spell level known.


    {table=header]
    Level
    |
    Bard MP Per Level
    |
    Maximum Spell Level Known
    1
    |
    2
    |
    0st
    2
    |
    3
    |
    1st
    3
    |
    7
    |
    1st
    4
    |
    11
    |
    2nd
    5
    |
    27
    |
    2nd
    6
    |
    39
    |
    2nd
    7
    |
    39
    |
    3rd
    8
    |
    71
    |
    3rd
    9
    |
    91
    |
    3rd
    10
    |
    91
    |
    4th
    11
    |
    139
    |
    4th
    12
    |
    167
    |
    4th
    13
    |
    167
    |
    5th
    14
    |
    232
    |
    5th
    15
    |
    272
    |
    5th
    16
    |
    284
    |
    6th
    17
    |
    348
    |
    6th
    18
    |
    420
    |
    6th
    19
    |
    500
    |
    6th
    20
    |
    544
    |
    6th
    [/table]


    Paladin/Ranger

    Both use WIS as their primary stat. “0” in the chart below means that they may cast and learn spells starting at that level only if they have bonus mana available at that level. Bonus mana is equal to WIS mod times twice their level. Maximum number of spells known is equal to ½ WIS mod times level (min 1/lev).

    {table=header]
    Level
    |
    Paladin/Ranger MP Per Level
    |
    Maximum Spell Level Known
    1
    |
    --
    |
    --
    2
    |
    --
    |
    --
    3
    |
    --
    |
    --
    4
    |
    0
    |
    1st
    5
    |
    0
    |
    1st
    6
    |
    4
    |
    1st
    7
    |
    4
    |
    1st
    8
    |
    4
    |
    2nd
    9
    |
    4
    |
    2nd
    10
    |
    16
    |
    2nd
    11
    |
    16
    |
    3rd
    12
    |
    36
    |
    3rd
    13
    |
    36
    |
    3rd
    14
    |
    40
    |
    4th
    15
    |
    68
    |
    4th
    16
    |
    80
    |
    4th
    17
    |
    100
    |
    4th
    18
    |
    104
    |
    4th
    19
    |
    164
    |
    4th
    20
    |
    192
    |
    4th
    [/table]

    Part 3: Extra Options

    The following are some optional rules I’ve come up with. Use them if you like them, ignore them if you don’t. It is likely that they will make spellcasters somewhat more powerful (which I know many do not like).

    Lines and Nodes

    Life generates magical energy (mana). This energy flows out of every living thing and, like water, eventually gathers into streams and rivers. These are called Lines. These Lines eventually cross each other at certain points. These points are known as Nodes. Lines and Nodes occur everywhere, but they are more likely to be found in places with an abundant amount of living creatures

    Lines and Nodes are potent, but dangerous, sources of magical power. A caster who has reached a sufficient level of power may learn to tap these powerful resources, at certain risk to himself. See the corresponding feats.

    Tap Line [metamagic]
    Prereq: ability to cast 7th level spells

    For a cost of 50 mana (or 2 points of ability damage to both CON and appropriate casting Stat if out of mana) per Line per attempt, a caster may attempt to Tap a Line to gain mana. Tapping requires a successful d20 check against a DC of 30 (add caster level and Stat mod to roll -- cannot “take 10”). Success means the Line is Tapped, failure by less than 5 means you failed. Failure by 5-8 means you may not attempt to Tap that Line again until you have gained a level. Failure by >8 means you were “Burned” by the Line, and suffer 1d6 damage. The DC increases by 5 per additional Line attempted.

    Benefit: If you have successfully Tapped a Line, you gain mana equal to your Stat mod per round per Tapped Line, up to your maximum mana amount. You may remain Tapped for 1 min/level. You may Tap 1 Line per Stat mod (mage with 17 INT may Tap up to 3 lines).

    Special: If you are Tapped and take damage, you must make a successful Concentration check vs DC 30+hpd taken+5 per extra Line. Success means you are fine and remain Tapped. Failure by <10 means you suffer 1d10 hpd per Line and lose a corresponding amount of mana, but remain Tapped. Failure by 10 or more means you suffer 4d4 hpd per Line, lose a corresponding amount of mana, lose access to the Line(s) and may not Tap again for 2 hours per Line.

    Tap Node [metamagic]
    Prereq: ability to cast 9th level spells

    For a cost of 75 mana (or 3 points of ability damage to both CON and appropriate casting Stat if out of mana) per Node per attempt, a caster may attempt to Tap a Node do gain mana. Tapping requires a successful d20 check against a DC of 40 (add caster level and Stat mod to roll – cannot “take 10”). Success means the Node is Tapped, failure by less than 5 means you failed. Failure by 5-8 means you may not attempt to Tap that Node again until you have gained a level. Failure by >8 means you were “Burned” by the Node, and suffer1d6 damage per Line in the Node. The DC increases by 10 per additional Node or Line attempted.

    Benefit: If you have successfully Tapped a Node, you gain mana equal to 1½ times your Stat mod per round per Line of the node, up to your maximum mana amount. You may remain Tapped for 1 min/level. You may Tap a Node containing Lines equal to 1+1 per Stat mod (mage with 17 INT may Tap a node with up to 4 lines).

    Special: If you are Tapped and take damage, you must make a successful Concentration check vs DC 40+hpd taken+5 per extra Line in the Node. Success means you are fine and remain Tapped. Failure by <10 means you suffer 1d12 hpd per Line in the Node and lose a corresponding amount of mana, but remain Tapped. Failure by 10 or more means you suffer 4d6 hpd per Line in the Node, lose a corresponding amount of mana, lose access to the Node and may not Tap again for 2 hours per Line in the Node, and may not cast any spells for 1 hour per Line in the Node.

    Frequency of Lines and Nodes:

    You may use this table to determine the frequency of Lines and Nodes in your campaign, or make up your own.

    {table=header]
    Environment / Area
    |[Number of Lines[/center]|
    Chance of Node
    Arctic
    |
    1d4
    |
    5% chance/Line >1
    Desert
    |
    1d4
    |
    5% chance/Line >1
    Forest
    |
    1d12
    |
    10% chance per Line <br> (minimum 2 Lines)
    Jungle
    |
    2d8
    |
    10% chance per Line <br> (minimum 2 Lines)
    Mountain
    |
    1d6
    |
    7% chance per Line <br> (minimum 2 Lines)
    Plains/cultivated
    |
    1d10
    |
    10% chance per Line <br> (minimum 2 Lines)
    Marsh/Swamp
    |
    1d10
    |
    10% chance per Line <br> (minimum 2 Lines)
    ”Urban”
    |
    1d4/1000 populace
    |
    7% chance per Line <br> (minimum 2 Lines)
    [/table]

    Wells

    While Lines and Nodes are like raging rapids of boiling water, a Mana Well is like a deep, calm pool of cool water. Any caster with the appropriate feat can create one of these pools.

    Mana Well [metamagic]

    Prereq: Ability to cast 7th level spells

    For a one-time cost of 1000 mana and 1 month of time, you may attempt to create a permanent mana receptacle, which you may later fill and use without risk. This receptacle must be a large, heavy, immovable object, >80 cubic feet (2x2x20) in size. 75% of this must be in contact with or buried in the ground at all times. The Well is destroyed and all mana lost if the well is moved >5 feet in any direction. A well may hold maximum mana equal to twice the creator’s maximum mana at the time of creation. The mana stored in a Well is accessible to the creator and any other spellcaster within 10 feet (per individual caster level) of the Well. The creator may “lock” access to the Well by spending an additional 500 mana and 1 additional week of time at the creation of the well. Spending 12 mana and 5 minutes of time may grant or deny access to any one individual the creator chooses. Any number of people may be granted access to a Well.

    To be useful, the Well must be filled from a caster’s personal reserves. Transfer rate is 4 mana per minute, filled by any caster with access to the Well.

    A caster with access can withdraw mana equal to their Stat mod times their level per round as a standard action.

    Having more than 1 Well within 1 mile of each other will cause each of them to destabilize, leaking mana at a rate of 12 mp per minute. There is also a 5% chance per day (non-cumulative) of each Well failing completely and permanently.

    Bloodpower

    All life creates magical energy, or mana. However, not all living creatures can use the mana they create. Some have learned how to wrest this mana from those who own it.

    Bloodpower Ritual [metamagic]
    Prereq: ability to cast 1st level spells, any Evil

    Benefit: For a cost of 2 mana per use, you may, through ritual torture involving slashing and/or piercing tools, gain power from others. This ritual must last for ½ hour per level or Hit Die of the victim. At the end of the ritual, you gain mana equal to 1 per CON per level or Hit Die of the victim. This may temporarily exceed your maximum mana amount by ½. Excess fades after hour equal to Stat mod times 2. As an example, a 5th level Fighter with a CON of 15 would, after 2 ½ hours of ritual, give you 75 mana.

    Spellcasters grant even more mana, giving an additional amount equal to their maximum mana. Creatures with spell-like abilities also grant extra mana. This mana is equal to the level cost of the ability times the number of uses of the ability. Psi-like abilities are the same, except that you multiply the psi-like ability amount by 4. All of these extra amounts are cumulative.
    Custom Melayl avatar by my cousin, ~thejason10, used with his permission. See his work at his Deviant Art page.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Melayl's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    In my own little world...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Reserved for future updates, etc.
    Custom Melayl avatar by my cousin, ~thejason10, used with his permission. See his work at his Deviant Art page.
    My works:
    Need help?
    Spoiler
    Show
    National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (USA)
    1-800-273-TALK (8255), 24/7
    www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org
    In Australia: Lifeline, 13 11 14, 24/7
    Reach Out Australia
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    When you metamagic a spell, does it's caster level increase to the minimum for the new spell level (eg would a maximized fireball be cl 11th level before augmentation). Anyways this variant is neither terribly more powerful nor terribly less powerful than normal. If you like the flavor, that's great, but it doesn't change much. It does discourage using lower level spells though. Rather, what it discourages is using the augmenting feature unless you absolutely have to. This might allow mages to squeeze out more spells.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2010-02-03 at 07:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Hmm, seems sound at first glance, though it needs two things:

    1)Victims. Playtesting.
    2)Smaller numbers. Why so high numbers? I'd think it'll slow down play even more.
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    Hmm, seems sound at first glance, though it needs two things:

    1)Victims. Playtesting.
    2)Smaller numbers. Why so high numbers? I'd think it'll slow down play even more.
    Spell points/mana will slow down play more than vancian regardless, but I don't think large numbers make a difference.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    I think they would, considering that instead of handling numbers with two digits (usually), you have to deal with numbers with an additional digit. It just seems more of a pain to me, but maybe I'm wrong.
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    I think they would, considering that instead of handling numbers with two digits (usually), you have to deal with numbers with an additional digit. It just seems more of a pain to me, but maybe I'm wrong.
    Maybe you are right, but it does balance spells a little. Not enough to make it a huge difference, but it's pretty much the main feature of the system. Well, not really, but the op must like the idea or they would've just used the SRD point system.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    When you metamagic a spell, does it's caster level increase to the minimum for the new spell level (eg would a maximized fireball be cl 11th level before augmentation).
    I would leave that up the the DM running your game. I'm not sure which I'd do -- probably whatever the default is.

    Hmm, seems sound at first glance, though it needs two things:

    1)Victims. Playtesting.
    2)Smaller numbers. Why so high numbers? I'd think it'll slow down play even more.
    1) Definitely. My group (such as it is) doesn't really get together often, so it really hasn't seen play. A variety of it has, in the other (homebrew) RPG I play.

    2) In my original post I lay out the reasons: It makes (in my mind, anyway) scaling of spells a little better (the psionic version seemed too expensive to me). It allows for the changes I made to specialists work better (3/4 cost for a specialty, etc). The higher numbers really aren't a problem, but there is an adjustment period. And a calculator. And it makes it easy to adjust the power level of casters in the game. Weaker? give 'em 3/4 MP. Or 1/2. Stronger? 1.25, or 1.5.

    I really wasn't a fan of the UA spellpoints -- it seemed confusing to me (I've always been strange...)

    It does still allow for a caster to use higher-level spells more often. That is, to me, it's biggest flaw. I'll be correcting that portion with my skill-based casting system (still in development).
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    It does still allow for a caster to use higher-level spells more often. That is, to me, it's biggest flaw. I'll be correcting that portion with my skill-based casting system (still in development).
    You could just make higher level spells scale quadratically instead of linearly. Well, not really quadratically that would be insane, but more than linearly.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2010-02-03 at 08:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    This system is awful.

    Spells no longer automatically scale.
    This is your first and biggest problem. Fireball was already a crap spell that you never had a reason to cast as opposed to a spell like Web. Now you have even less of a reason because for some reason Fireball doesn't scale, but Web is just as effective without paying any more mana. Sorry, but that right there completely trashes your system beyond repair. It's the same deal with psionics, which everyone just gets around by not using powers as crappy as Energy Bolt.


    Problem #2: too many words. Seriously. You should be able to explain this system to me in under a minute. That has failed.
    Last edited by Surgo; 2010-02-03 at 11:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgo View Post
    This system is awful.


    This is your first and biggest problem. Fireball was already a crap spell that you never had a reason to cast as opposed to a spell like Web. Now you have even less of a reason because for some reason Fireball doesn't scale, but Web is just as effective without paying any more mana. Sorry, but that right there completely trashes your system beyond repair. It's the same deal with psionics, which everyone just gets around by not using powers as crappy as Energy Bolt.


    Problem #2: too many words. Seriously. You should be able to explain this system to me in under a minute. That has failed.
    Hmm, this guy is probably right, if a bit harsh. The spells should probably scale, just give them less mana to accommodate that fact. Most of the best spells don't scale anyways.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgo View Post
    This system is awful.


    This is your first and biggest problem. Fireball was already a crap spell that you never had a reason to cast as opposed to a spell like Web. Now you have even less of a reason because for some reason Fireball doesn't scale, but Web is just as effective without paying any more mana. Sorry, but that right there completely trashes your system beyond repair. It's the same deal with psionics, which everyone just gets around by not using powers as crappy as Energy Bolt.


    Problem #2: too many words. Seriously. You should be able to explain this system to me in under a minute. That has failed.
    Spells do scale. You just have to pay for it (like the psionic classes do). Yes, the damage spells do cost more to make more effective than spells like Web or the save-or-dies. I'm not sure how to address that, but I am aware of the problem.

    Yes, it is wordy. No, I can't explain a major change to a system in under a minute, nor was I trying to. I can try to clarify the wording to make it easier. Perhaps you could offer advice on how to simplify the explainations?
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    You can avoid it by not doing it in the first place.

    I know that the spells do scale. Except they don't scale by themselves, they scale by forcing you to pay more mana. Fireball is a crap spell. Web is an amazing spell. Fireball scales. Web does not scale. This comparison is true for almost every spell in the PHB. Why would you want to make bad spells worse and awesome spells more awesome?
    Last edited by Surgo; 2010-02-04 at 07:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgo View Post
    You can avoid it by not doing it in the first place.

    I know that the spells do scale. Except they don't scale by themselves, they scale by forcing you to pay more mana. Fireball is a crap spell. Web is an amazing spell. Fireball scales. Web does not scale. This comparison is true for almost every spell in the PHB. Why would you want to make bad spells worse and awesome spells more awesome?
    To the OP: My reccomendation is to simply make spells scale automatically with no cost in mana. You'll have to cut down on how much mana they get, but it will end up more balanced that way.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgo View Post
    You can avoid it by not doing it in the first place.
    If you have no constructive criticisms, please refrain from comment at all.

    I know that the spells do scale. Except they don't scale by themselves, they scale by forcing you to pay more mana. Fireball is a crap spell. Web is an amazing spell. Fireball scales. Web does not scale. This comparison is true for almost every spell in the PHB. Why would you want to make bad spells worse and awesome spells more awesome?
    That's a problem with the spells. Yes, my system shows that off, but I've not seen a system that doesn't. Even Vancian casting doesn't fix the differences in those spells. I know it may not matter to a lot of (or any) other groups, but when we actually get a chance to game, we don't really use the save-or-suck spells.

    I know you have your own point-based casting system, and it works for you. I've seen it (the original on the WoTC boards, and your update). It's well thought-out, but it doesn't work for me.

    @Droylt -- Eliminating the automatic scaling was one of the intents of the system in the first place. I feel that it brings down the power level to a slightly more equal field.
    Last edited by Melayl; 2010-02-04 at 08:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    @Droylt -- Eliminating the automatic scaling was one of the intents of the system in the first place. I feel that it brings down the power level to a slightly more equal field.
    I'm not sure it does. If your group avoids the save or suck spells then I don't see how wizards/mages are overpowered to begin with. I don't think your system is necessarily bad however, I just think it penalizes the wrong spells.

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    Default Re: Melayl's mana-based spellcasting system [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl
    If you have no constructive criticisms, please refrain from comment at all.
    If you don't want to hear why your system is bad, don't put PEACH in the title.

    That's a problem with the spells.
    And with your system. In fact, your system makes it worse. Far worse.

    Even Vancian casting doesn't fix the differences in those spells.
    It also doesn't make them even worse.
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