3.5 Evil Gestalt Monk/? Concept [Ideas Welcome]

[Lord Nikodemus]

So our DM is changing things up, and we are playing an evil campaign in the Greyhawk world.

Sourcebooks: Any 3.5 (even Modern, Star Wars, etc) ... although a good story has to accompany anything.
So far...
Race: Lolth-touched Mineral Warrior Giant (Earth, Giant)
Class: Monk 3 / Giant 3 (LA +2)

Sources: Giant (Arcana Evolved), Lolth-touched (MM IV), Mineral Warrior (Underdark)
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So, the idea is a Giant, whose family was farmed by Lolth worshippers, to be an elite guard. Forced to undergo the Mineral transformation. Etc etc.

I have been looking through tons of prestige classes and feats to see where I want to go. I like a lot of the things from Quintessential Monk. I was thinking of going more for the chop-chop build. Pushing my base damage dice. Getting more attacks. Possibly going the path of breaking things with my fists.
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Any input would be appreciated. Except things that tell me not to play this idea, or not to play a Monk. Thank you.

[gallagher]

So our DM is changing things up, and we are playing an evil campaign in the Greyhawk world.

Sourcebooks: Any 3.5 (even Modern, Star Wars, etc) ... although a good story has to accompany anything.
So far...
Race: Lolth-touched Mineral Warrior Giant (Earth, Giant)
Class: Monk 3 / Giant 3 (LA +2)

Sources: Giant (Arcana Evolved), Lolth-touched (MM IV), Mineral Warrior (Underdark)
-----
So, the idea is a Giant, whose family was farmed by Lolth worshippers, to be an elite guard. Forced to undergo the Mineral transformation. Etc etc.

I have been looking through tons of prestige classes and feats to see where I want to go. I like a lot of the things from Quintessential Monk. I was thinking of going more for the chop-chop build. Pushing my base damage dice. Getting more attacks. Possibly going the path of breaking things with my fists.
-----
Any input would be appreciated. Except things that tell me not to play this idea, or not to play a Monk. Thank you.

i am actually going through something similar in a 3.5 partial gestalt game. you need to find a way to incorperate a full BAB, as that is the biggest thing hindering your monk. then study on the different grapple moves, as they have helped me alot. especially the chokeholds and the denying someone their size and strength in a grapple.

finally, take the feat that allows you to add WIS to hit, or beef up your strength instead. either works, it depends on what you go for. in my game gestalted with a paladin of tyranny, and used the feat Serenity so i could add my wisdom to my saves instead of CHA, so it was already high, and i took insightful strike so i could use my 24 WIS on my to-hits.

finally, the first second you can get some qualls feather token: whips. they are dead handy and help keep guys with larger size bonuses and reach or anything else that you dont want close to you wrapped up.

[Lord Nikodemus]

I like the suggestions and will check them out.

My guy is going to be Large and going to start with +8 Str, so that will change some things. I do like the chokehold, and other moves I read in the Quintessential.

[gallagher]

I like the suggestions and will check them out.

My guy is going to be Large and going to start with +8 Str, so that will change some things. I do like the chokehold, and other moves I read in the Quintessential.

large is good for a brawling monk.

also, as far as weapons go, the quintessential monk has a special monk weapon that can be flurried with that is effectively a ball on a rope with 10 ft reach. i think that that will be even better given your large size, and trip attepts are always good for a brawler. trip them, then on their attempt to get up, hit your AoO for another trip. once they are on the ground at the start of your turn, you start to grapple.

also, if there is a ledge of some sort, there is a special grapple move i think called the firemans carry, where you can run with the character grappled for half your movement speed. make sure you go unarmored so you can use this to your advantage, and throw people off of large cliffs. had i the opportunity i was going to throw some pirate mook off of his ship last game, but i hadnt the chance.

[Lord Nikodemus]

Yeah. I dig the ball-and-rope weapon. Immediately I thought of the scene in Kill Bill with the much smaller (and bladed) version. I think I might rework the weapon to be a ball and chain.

Thanks for the ideas. It seems this topic hasn't sparked much response. This is my first post on here. Hope I get some more input. The game kicks off in four weeks!

[Pluto]

Any input would be appreciated. Except things that tell me not to play this idea, or not to play a Monk. Thank you.

(I'm unfamiliar with Quintessential Monk, d20 Modern and Star Wars d20, so even if Jedi has something incredible to offer, I can't really comment.)

I like Swordsage//Incarnate for gestalt monk-ery. It works fantastically with 1-6 levels of Monk on either side.

If you want more Monk levels in your Monk, I'd still recommend Swordsage or Law Incarnate. Each offers excellent synergy with the Monk class and skirts some of the greatest difficulties a monk faces (lack of mechanical versatility, big numbers, tactical mobility, etc). They also share superb Wis/Con synergy with the Monk.

[Lord Nikodemus]

I like Swordsage//Incarnate for gestalt monk-ery. It works fantastically with 1-6 levels of Monk on either side.

Where exactly is the Incarnate from?

[EDIT] Magic of Incarnum. Got it.

[Lord Nikodemus]

Hrm. As far as the Incarnate goes, I would have to drop the Lolth-Touched template, as it makes me Chaotic Evil, and ineligible for the Incarnate class.

It's possible that with enough story I might be able to simply go with Evil, and be "neutral" with extreme chaos tendencies. I'll have to read more into the Incarnate class / ideals.

[Pluto]

Hrm. As far as the Incarnate goes, I would have to drop the Lolth-Touched template, as it makes me Chaotic Evil, and ineligible for the Incarnate class.

Bah. I forgot about that bit. Sorry about that.

It's possible that with enough story I might be able to simply go with Evil, and be "neutral" with extreme chaos tendencies. I'll have to read more into the Incarnate class / ideals.

If you can, Evil Incarnate provides pretty good damage, especially if you can boost your attacks/round via TWF, Swordsage and/or Monk.

[gallagher]

Yeah. I dig the ball-and-rope weapon. Immediately I thought of the scene in Kill Bill with the much smaller (and bladed) version. I think I might rework the weapon to be a ball and chain.

Thanks for the ideas. It seems this topic hasn't sparked much response. This is my first post on here. Hope I get some more input. The game kicks off in four weeks!

yeah, i understand that monk conversations are pretty tired out here, as most hate them, and the ones that love them love the concept and keep trying to rework the character ad nausium. i usually use them with a gestalt build because even though you should probably have a high wisdom, they work great with most builds as a gestalt. have a caster who cant use armor? bam, here is +3 for having good wisdom. works great at low levels and stacks with spells. also has good skill selection, so a wizard with epic INT has tumble and escape artist, both of which help their versatility.

that ball and chain works great for trip attempts, because as you progress you will find more and more people with freedom of movement, so your grapples are not worth as much, and tripping will help keep your party rogue entertained by rolling extra d6s

[Xenogears]

Lets see. Oh okay. Heres an idea:
Gestalt with a caster that PrC's into Fleshwarper from Lord of Madness. Use the graft's to make yourself more poweful. I especially reccommend the insanely cheap Feather Wings (10k for permanent non-magical flight? Hell yeah!) and Long Arm (5k for +5 reach!). Spike Stones are kinda cool (4k for +1d4 unarmed damage and +2d4 grapple damage). Plus the caster levels can be used on buffs like Divine Power if your a cleric (Not sure if clerics get the requisite spells for all the grafts but most of the best ones are Fiendish and most of those don't need spells). Plus Cleric gives great Wis synergy. Also take a 1 Lvl Dip in Shiba Protecter (Oriental Adventures) to get Wis to Attack and Damage.

Concept: Monk levels represent trying to achieve mental perfection, Cleric represents Spiritual perfection, and Fleshwarper is to achieve Physical Perfection. The character is trying to become perfect in mind, body, and soul. Perfectly Evil that is.

[Lord Nikodemus]

Thanks Pluto and Ghallagher.

Concept: Monk levels represent trying to achieve mental perfection, Cleric represents Spiritual perfection, and Fleshwarper is to achieve Physical Perfection. The character is trying to become perfect in mind, body, and soul. Perfectly Evil that is.

I do like the graft idea, and will have to look into it.

The party thus far has a Glora caster / trickster, a Thri-Kreen swordsage ranged monstrosity, a mystic theurge caster, some guy who is a chump, and then my guy. The DM is rolling with an uber-sneak attack build... so that leaves me with not much besides a healer.... woooh...

[Pluto]

The DM is rolling with an uber-sneak attack build... so that leaves me with not much besides a healer.... woooh...

Don't let that stop you!

Also, Tome of Battle's Shadowsun Ninja is a neat Monk/Swordsage PrC that can generate infinite healing. It requires having some undead at hand (or the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat from Libris Mortis), but it can save you the cost of a few wands of Lesser Vigor.

[Barbarian MD]

Soul Eater is always good for a one level dip. Flurry of blows + negative level with each touch = carnage.

AND I would encourage you to check out the Penny Dreadful Monk variant.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AY...pkZDJ2cA&hl=en

[Lord Nikodemus]

Shadowsun Ninja is a neat Monk/Swordsage PrC that can generate infinite healing. It requires having some undead at hand (or the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat from Libris Mortis), but it can save you the cost of a few wands of Lesser Vigor.

I checked out the Shadow Sun Ninja. Super cool class, just the wrong end of the good/evil spectrum. However, I can make the Sun Shadow Ninja and invert the purpose. I don't know a whole lot about the maneuvers and such, but was wondering if going Monk/Swordsage until I hit Shadow Sun Ninja, and then add Incarnate into the mix would make sense?

One thing I might not have mentioned is we are allowed to dual-PrC with the gestalt.

[Xenogears]

I do like the graft idea, and will have to look into it.

Well you can just buy the grafts from various creatures if you don't want to take the class levels. Find an NPC Fleshgrafter or be willing to work with Fiends for the best grafts.

Fiend Folio has the best grafts in it (although a lot of them are junk) but there are also some good ones in Lords of Madness and a few interesting ones in Libris Mortis.

There are also some ones in various ebberon books but those use a different system and tend to not be as good.

[Lord Nikodemus]

What didn't work out...
Shiba Protector: need to be Human (I'm a Giant)
Fleshwarper: need to be non-Lawful (I'm a Monk)
Incarnate: have to be Neutral (I'm Lawful (Monk) Evil (evil campaign))

What did work out...
Monk/Swordsage -> Shadow Sun Ninja (just changed it to Sun Shadow Ninja flip-flopping the good-evil aspect)
Soul Eater: OMG...
Tomb-Tainted Soul: Yeah... infinite healing by punching myself. Awesome for storyline/flavor.

What might work out... (haven't fully researched)
Grafts
Power Talisman (Quintessential Monk): Anyone know the ruling on enchanting it with the special weapon addons from Magic Item Compendium? (The one's without bonus modifiers, example: Everbright)
Improved Energy Drain (Libris Mortis): Does the bonus gained stack if you energy drain multiple times within the hour of effect?

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CURRENT LAYOUT: Note: Gestalt, and we can dual Prestige Class

RACE/TEMPLATES:
Giant (Arcana Evolved)
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Con, Large size (land speed 30), +2 Diplomacy / Sense Motive, +2 Craft, Lang: Common/Giant (bonus any), Knowledge (giants), free access to giant spell template (Arcana Evolved)

Feral (Savage Species)
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, HD d10, +10 ft land speed, +6 nat armor, 2 claw attacks (2d6), improved grab, pounce, Darkvision 60', Fast Healing 3

Mineral Warrior (Underdark)
+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha; Burrow speed (1/2 land speed); Nat Arm +3; Darkvision 60'; DR 8/adamantine
Earth Strike (Ex): Once per day, the mineral warrior can make an exceptionally vicious attack against any foe that stands on stone or earth. The mineral warrior adds its Constitution bonus (if any) to its attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per racial Hit Die.

Total: Str +10, Dex -4, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -2

BASE CLASSES:
Monk, Swordsage, ...?

PRESTIGE CLASSES:
Sun Shadow Ninja (Tome of Battle)
Requirements: Evil; BAB +3; Hide 8 ranks; Imp. Unarmed Strike; one 2nd-level Setting Sun or Shadow Hand maneuver, one Setting Sun maneuver of any level, and one Shadow Hand maneuver of any level.

Soul Eater (Book of Vile Darkness)
Requirements: Non-human; evil; BAB +5; Know (arcana) 2 ranks; Alertness, Weapon Focus (natural attack), Special: Desiring feeding on souls, undergo a forbidden, profane ritual

Monk of the Long Death (Player's Guide to Faerun)
Requirements: Non-good, Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, Craft (poisonmaking) 7 ranks, Heal 3 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Base Will Save +5, Special: inducted via a secret ceremony

Iron Legs Kickboxer (Quintessential Monk)
Requirements: Base Fort +5, Imp Unarmed Strike, Hammer Blow, Power Attack, Great Fortitude, Intimidate 4 ranks, Unarmed damage d8

FIGHTING SCHOOL: (Quintessential Monk)
Double Hammer
Benefits: Weapon Focus (instead of Deflect arrows at level 2), Hammer Blow (instead of Improved Trip at level 6)

FEATS:
Monster Manual
Improved Natural Armor (Nat Armor, Con 13)
Imp Natural Attack (Nat weapon, BAB +4) - 2d6 to 3d6
Oriental Adventures
Roundabout Kick (Str 15+, Pow Atk, Imp Unarmed Strike) - Unarmed crit = bonus attack
Libris Mortis
Improved Energy Drain
Tomb-Born Vitality (non-good, tomb-tainted) - No sleep, immune to sleep effects, don't need to eat
Tomb-Tainted Soul (non-good) - healed by negative energy

FORMS: (Quintessential Monk)
18 Iron Lohan
Requirements: Str 15+, Pow Atk, Unarmed Damage d8+
Walking Trance
Requirements: Con 13+, Wis 17+, Endurance, Iron Will

[Lord Nikodemus]

LEVEL PROGRESSION:
1 Monk 1 / Fighter 1 - BAB +1; Flurry of Blows (-2/-2), Unarmed Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Weapon Focus (claw) (Fighter), Alertness (Level), Power Attack (Flaw), Great Fortitude (Flaw); Driven (Inattentive) -4 Listen/Spot, Shaky -2 on ranged attack
2 Monk 2 / Swordsage 1 - BAB +2; Evasion, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) (Monk)
3 Giant 1 / Swordsage 2 - BAB +3; AC Bonus (Wisdom); Tomb-Tainted Soul (Level)
4 Giant 2 / Swordsage 3 - BAB +4; Fort +1, Will +1; Ability Score +1
5 Monk 3 / Giant 3 - BAB +5; Large size; Still Mind
6 Sun Shadow Ninja 1 / Soul Eater 1 - BAB +6/+1; Saves +2; Maneuver (+1); Touch of the Sun Shadow; Energy Drain 1; Hammer Blow (Level)
7 Iron Leg Kickboxer 1 / Soul Eater 2 - BAB +7/+2; Fort +2, Ref +1; Will +2; Soul Strength (+4 for 24 hours); Toughness
8 Iron Leg Kickboxer 2 / Soul Eater 3 - BAB +8/+3; Fort +1, Will +1; Soul Blast; Razor Kick +1 (19-20); Ability Score +1
9 Iron Leg Kickboxer 3 / Soul Eater 4 - BAB +9/+4; Level feat
10 Iron Leg Kickboxer 4 / Soul Eater 5 - BAB +10/+5; Razor Kick +2 (18-20)
11 Iron Leg Kickboxer 5 / Soul Eater 6 - BAB +11/+6/+1;
12 Sun Shadow Ninja 2 / Soul Eater 7 - BAB +12/+7/+2; Level feat

... I just got too tired to continue. Over 7 hours at it... sheesh... and yes, I know its not complete, but the important stuff is in there... I think...

[Lord Nikodemus]

Question about the Touch of Sun Shadow ability; is there a clause that makes you naturally immune to your own attacks? ie. Can I hit myself with a Touch of Sun Shadow attack and heal due to Tomb-Tainted Soul?

[Human Paragon 3]

There's a monk alternate class feature in Exemplars of Evil that trades evasion for the ability to turn invisible. It's available to good monks too, but it fits especially well for evil monks.

[Barbarian MD]

I'm serious, check out the Penny Dreadful Monk: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AY...pkZDJ2cA&hl=en

I'm currently playing two of them (level 15), with a cohort (14), in a PvP match against 6 characters (14-15), and I think I'm winning.

As a Monk 10/Warblade 5//Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor/Soul Eater 1, I can:

Most importantly: Flurry 5 attacks as a standard action in a Fly-By attack that deal 1 negative level each.

Cast cleric spells almost at full progression
Utilize martial maneuvers (Iron Heart Surge, for one)
Have incredibly good saves
Create mirror images of yourself while flurrying
Constant See Invisible, with True Seeing 10/rounds day
DR 8, SR 25

If you are both Hasted and Righteous Wrath of the Faithfuled, you get 10 attacks as a full attack. That's 10 negative levels, on top of the 300 damage you do.

It's easily the most powerful character I've ever played. The Cleric part is optional if you've got someone that can buff your big bad, but the Monk/Warblade + Soul Eater 1 is amazingly powerful. You don't actually need the rest of the Soul Eater levels, since the enhancement bonuses to abilities don't stack with magic items. The ability to assume the form of a victim would make for excellent DM-evilness, though.

[Lord Nikodemus]

There's a monk alternate class feature in Exemplars of Evil that trades evasion for the ability to turn invisible. It's available to good monks too, but it fits especially well for evil monks.

Hrm. Don't have a paper or digital version of that book. Could you alleviate that situation, or type the full wording?

[Lord Nikodemus]

I'm serious, check out the Penny Dreadful Monk

Fine fine. I will present it to my DM and see what he thinks.

P.S. Interesting fact, my first name is Vaughn.

[Barbarian MD]

Two more suggestions: they're long feat chains, but synergize well with monk:

grappling block: if someone hits you, you can grab the weapon out of their hands if your check beats their attack roll negating the damage.

Defensive throw: if someone misses you, auto-trip attempt.

They're both awesome, but combined and optimized? You become a melee player's worst nightmare.

[Mongoose87]

I'd switch out Roundabout Kick for that one in ToB (Roundhouse Kick?). You don't need to crit to get your extra attack with that. Also, Improved Natural Armor, isn't that just a +1? You can probably do better.

[Lord Nikodemus]

I'd switch out Roundabout Kick for that one in ToB (Roundhouse Kick?). You don't need to crit to get your extra attack with that. Also, Improved Natural Armor, isn't that just a +1? You can probably do better.

Roundabout Kick = more than one extra attack. Combined with Iron Leg Kickboxer and my 15-20 crit range, that could be a lot of attacks.

[Lord Nikodemus]

grappling block
Defensive throw

Sourcebook?

Oh, and no go on the homebrew Monk variant. Oh well!

[Apropos]

I think mongoose was talking about Snap Kick. But there's really no need to replace Roundabout (I think its actually roundhouse) Kick with it. Snap Kick simply gives you an extra attack any time you attack at the cost of a -2 penalty to all attacks. But it also makes you flat-footed, but the extra attack usually makes it worth it to most optimizers.

You also might want SUS, since you don't have that. Unless it doesn't stack with Monk's belt, which you should also have.

I think Grappling Block is a Dragon mag one, and in my experience, most DMs don't like Dragon. But Defensive Throw is in CWar.

[Mongoose87]

Roundabout Kick = more than one extra attack. Combined with Iron Leg Kickboxer and my 15-20 crit range, that could be a lot of attacks.

In that case, switch out Improved Natural Armor for it, and get yourself another attack to crit on.

[Barbarian MD]

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml <-Your source for every feat, ever (almost)

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...efensive_Throw
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...rappling_Block

Enjoy!

EDIT: grappling block is oriental adventures. (You can see where feats come from on RealmsHelps.

Flat footed = no dex bonus to AC. Not something I'd go for with a monk. Your biggest strength is being impossible to hit with melee and with spells.

Further Edit: Avoid +1 bonuses to things. You only get 9 feats. Make them count. You'll get magic items and buffing for those sorts of things.