Bard -> Swiftblade Build Help

[AtwasAwamps]

So, I’m attempting to figure something out right now. A recent discussion at my table fell upon the bard, and the general opinion is that a bard in 3.5 is awful. Now, I strongly disagree and believe the bard is a fairly solid, middle of the road class…and according to the tier systems I’ve seen, as a Tier 3 class, it appears I’m right. The strength to handle a variety of roles while being an excellent party supporter is a great, great thing.

I’ve been putting together a number of character options for a higher level game I’m joining with this crew…one of them does have a few levels in bard, for the sake of flavor, but now I’m tempted to run something more heavily bard-invested, just to show off. Part of me is drawn towards Dragonfire Inspiration and utilizing its power…I’d like to combine it with Swiftblade, as well. I’m just looking for advice right now on how to construct this character and what exactly to do with them.

Note: I have read the swiftblade handbook on the wizard boards, but it doesn’t quite give me what I’m looking for.

General Guidelines

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All books are allowed. Build will start at level 9.

I’m assuming the way to go is Bard 7/SB 2, continuing to at least the 4th level of swiftblade. That carries me to level 11. This game will most likely not make it to twenty, thus I’m planning the build for at most level 15. In addition, the game does not use WBL, so don’t assume I’m going to have the option of grabbing a Crystal Echoblade and may not actually be able to obtain one in the game at all (I know, I know…stingy DM).

Some houserules in effect: Sneak attack only works on one attack in a round, period. This makes it roughly worthless.

Nobody in this group has really played a bard effectively ever. I want to show them just one facet of how neat a bard can be.

I need help on:

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Feats!
Obvious Choices are: Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Dodge, Mobility. At level 9, I will have a total of 5 feats (Human, 1, 3, 6, 9).

Four of these are taken up by what are essentially necessities for the Gish-Bard. For my extra feats, I’m not sure what to take. Words of Creation is a good one, but cheesy and might get me stepped on. Lingering Song seems to be a good idea, as does Extra Song, since most combats will involve me utilizing at least 2-3 uses of my bardic song. Song of the Heart, on the other hand, will give my song a straight up boost. Finally, TWF would add a strong flavor to the melee power of the build, but counteracts the whole ‘spring attack’ feel of the SB. Right now, I’m leaning towards lingering/extra song, taking whichever one I DON’T take at level 12.

Where to go afterwards:

Back into Bard is one option, as picking up that extra level will give me +1 to inspire courage; slipping into abjurant champion is another. Hell, at this point, I’m even close to picking up dervish and stacking DFI, Snowflake, and Dervish Dance, though I’d stop gaining caster levels.

Any thoughts or advice? I’d appreciate it, as I’m not really familiar with gishes. I know I’d like to find room for Arcane Strike or something in here, though…is lingering song that necessary?

[Mongoose87]

Take a level of Sublime Chord at level 11, then advance the casting of that, with the rest of your Switchblade.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, getting in some dead levels and then taking Sublime Chord at 11 is awesome, since it basically erases the dead levels. It also gives you far more useful spell slots to use.

Unfortunately, the best way to do it, probably, would be Bard 1/Wizard 5/Swiftblade 4/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade +6/whatever 2. The advantage is that you get in Swiftblade 4 (and therefore another dead level) before taking Sublime Chord, so you ultimately lose only 2 spellcasting levels. You end up with 4th level Wizard spells (so you only really need 14 Int; you're just going to be casting Haste anyway) before going into Sublime Chord. Sublime Chord 2 is pretty worthwhile (though you'll only have two uses per day of Bardic Music, so the Extra Music feat is pretty crucial), and then Swiftblade continues to advance your Chord spellcasting.

The only tricky bit is Arcane Reflexes - it says "your arcane spellcasting ability modifier", which is not actually a defined term anywhere in D&D (and would be rather confusing with characters that use different ability modifiers for DCs and bonus spells, for example), and there isn't the line there about having multiple spellcasting classes. I'd say Charisma should be a legitimate choice here, since Bard is an arcane spellcasting class and it uses Charisma for spells, but some might balk about the fact that you qualified for the class and have used it thus far to advance Wizard casting. If necessary, though, you could probably just as easily use Swiftblade to get two levels of Bard spellcasting instead of two more levels of Wizard spellcasting.

Also, Wizard 5 can be replaced with Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3 (or 3/2 if you can't or don't want to use early entry shenanigans, but that's not really worthwhile), which could be quite fun (MS 3 gets, IIRC, their Minor School Esoterica, which is a good thing). You almost certainly would want to be a Focused Specialist in Transmutation, for obvious reasons, so being a Master Specialist just makes sense. Though feats then become an issue, you need Spell Focus (Transmutation), Dodge, Mobility, and Extra Music; that's all your feats if you're not Human and don't use the Martial Wizard ACF (trade Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus Feat - like Dodge or Mobility). But it's not an impossible number of prereqs by any means.

[Fizban]

One thing you can do: since you've already taken Dodge and Mobility to qualify, and you get Spring Attack along the way, take Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz from the PHBII. That'll give you more attacks on a spring attack, though it's a set number so you still won't get your haste attacks.

[AtwasAwamps]

One thing you can do: since you've already taken Dodge and Mobility to qualify, and you get Spring Attack along the way, take Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz from the PHBII. That'll give you more attacks on a spring attack, though it's a set number so you still won't get your haste attacks.

I might, thought swiftblades get it as a class feature as well at some point.

[Fishy]

Don't take Dodge. Unless you're getting it through a fighter bonus feat or have terrible Con, Midnight Dodge is strictly better. But because you're going to be moving around a lot, Expeditious Dodge starts to look great, and Desert Wind Dodge looks interesting.

[AtwasAwamps]

Don't take Dodge. Unless you're getting it through a fighter bonus feat or have terrible Con, Midnight Dodge is strictly better. But because you're going to be moving around a lot, Expeditious Dodge starts to look great, and Desert Wind Dodge looks interesting.

Both Midnight Dodge and Desert Wind Dodge require me taking something besides bard leading into swiftblade or spending an extra feat, when I'm already in trouble feat-wise. Expeditious Dodge might work, though I don't remember where its from and if there's any prereqs to it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Expeditous dodge is from races of the wild, though I am not sure if it has pre-requisites or not, personallly I believe it doesn't

[Fishy]

Midnight Dodge doesn't require you to put any other investment into Incarnum at all: You get one point of Essentia for taking the feat, and that's enough to make it exactly as powerful as normal Dodge.

However, if you scrounge up another essentia point from somewhere, either through magic items or being an Azurin, Midnight Dodge becomes twice as good. Alternatively, when Dodge stops being useful except as a prereq, you can get an Incarnum magic item and spend that essentia point on something more interesting.

[AtwasAwamps]

I think I’ll go for expeditious dodge, just for the sake of convenience. Still counts as dodge and doesn’t require reading through a book I don’t know very well (even though it’s a damn cool book from what I HAVE read).

I’m going to go track down Person_Man’s stat to X guide, see if I can’t find a way to make charisma do a little more work for me. Part of me wants to scrap this and just go sorcadin, but I am determined to play a bard with these punks.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

How about levels of Arcane Duelist?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Make an opposition party of Bards. A Bard/Sublime Chord, a Bard/Legendary Captain, a TWF Bard/Swiftblade, and a Bard/Crusader. Should be able to face off against most parties at similar levels.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sounds like someone needs Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sounds like someone needs Dragonfire Inspiration.

DFI is an option, but a lot of times, standard IC is actually better. Of course, you can always do both...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

DFI is an option, but a lot of times, standard IC is actually better. Of course, you can always do both...

With four bards, yes.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

With four bards, yes.

Or with one Bard. It's an option, after all(and any buff bard wants Lingering Song and Melodic Casting). Use IC and your swift to boost it first turn, swift to boost IC your second turn, then start DFI. Not good if you're surprised, but if you have a couple buff rounds before starting combat, it's nice.

[DragoonWraith]

What Swift Action boosts to Inspire Courage are you talking about?

[lsfreak]

The Badge of Valor, and the SpC spell Inspirational Boost. Both take a swift action and both boost your IC by +1.

[Tinydwarfman]

If at all possible, take words of creation from the book of broken deeds. Combined w/ aforementioned spells, its 1 feat for OMGWTFBBQ goodness. (doubles your inspire courage bonus - I believe it should work w/ dragonfire inspiration.)

[DragoonWraith]

The Badge of Valor, and the SpC spell Inspirational Boost. Both take a swift action and both boost your IC by +1.

Oh wow, I was not aware of either. My Bard is going to have to acquire those, I think.

[Vaynor]

Here's a guide to Swiftblades that might help you out a bit, it's pretty good.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah, getting in some dead levels and then taking Sublime Chord at 11 is awesome, since it basically erases the dead levels. It also gives you far more useful spell slots to use.
Unfortunately, the best way to do it, probably, would be Bard 1/Wizard 5/Swiftblade 4/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade +6/whatever 2. The advantage is that you get in Swiftblade 4

You don't actually have the BAB for swiftblade at bard 1 (bab 0), wizard 5 (bab 2). Maybe if using fractional BAB, but otherwise no.

Not sure off the top of my head what Sublime Chord does, but if you're going for a melee focused swiftblade, most of the spells in the handbook will be a little less useful to you. My opinion is that they're intended more for a 'batman' swiftblade, than a melee swiftblade.
Anyway, here's an edited swiftblade spell list I got when I asked a few months back

Spells: As suggested by the swiftblade handbook (link above) and edited by Shneekey

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1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)

4th Level Spells:

Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

Another option, ask your DM if you can craft an item of haste yourself after taking levels in swiftblade. Then, when you use the item, it can count as casting haste yourself. The general consensus on the board is "no," but if you've got a lenient DM, who likes flavorful things, it'll be awesome. (Still won't give you the capstone, which specifies casting from a spellslot.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That or a Ring of Wizardry III, or a few Memento Magica III

[AtwasAwamps]

So, things have changed a little. I've decided to avoid Swiftblade, as its online-only and I think that would make my playgroup a little nervous. I'm bumping this up since I don't feel like making yet another new thread asking about build help

This build starts at level 9. The game is planned to go to around level 15.

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Build:

Bard 7/Abjurant Champ 2

Feats:

Level 1:
Dragonfire Inspiration (Races of the Dragon)
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer)

Level 3:
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn)

Level 6:
Arcane Disciple: Retribution Domain (Complete Divine)

Level 9:
Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)


Spells:

Casts as Bard 9

Spells Known:
0 – 6
1 – 4
2 – 4
3 – 3

Spells per Day:
0 – 3
1 – 3
2 – 3
3 – 2

Spell List:

0: Prestidigitation, Stick, Minor Disguise, Mending, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand
1: Inspirational Boost, Shield of Faith, Cure Light Wounds, Identify
2: Haste, Whirling Blade, Bladeweave

HD: 6+6d6+2d10
BAB: +7 (+7/+2)
Saves: Fort – 2 Ref – 5 Will – 8

Arcane Disciple is to grant me access to Shield of Faith as an arcane spell, giving me a spell to actually get into Abj. Champ without taking an awful spell like "alarm". It's also going to give me a nice big AC boost, which I will need as I hit mid-levels. I'm a little iffy on my spell selection. Stat priorities will be Cha/Con/Str/Dex/Int/Wis. I know I need at least 11 wisdom to cast Shield of Faith, so I'll make sure I have at least that, one way or another.

Any comments? I know that using sorceror/wizard to enter Abj. Champion would be stronger, but I want to stick with bard. On the flip side, does anybody know another prestige class I might want to hop into? Again, this build starts at level 9 and the game will only go to 15, so I want the build to hit the ground running. Thanks for your help.

[Mongoose87]

Your build looks alright, to me. but I have no idea why your group would be turned off by the online only.

[herrhauptmann]

Probably Online=overpowered!
Spellsword, bladesinger, eldritch knight

[AtwasAwamps]

Probably Online=overpowered!
Spellsword, bladesinger, eldritch knight

That's about right

RE: Bladesinger - Is there really a benefit to taking this class? You lose caster levels, and the various class features are...incredibly underwhelming. Not to mention the ridiculous feat requirements (which include dodge, combat expertise, and weapon focus!). This seems more oriented towards fighter/wizards than bards.

RE: Spellsword - Easy to qualify for, so better than Bladesinger, but also suffers from the lost spell level problem, combined with Channel Spell not being particularly useful for someone with the bard spell list.

RE: Eldritch Knight - Lose a caster level, gain a fighter feat...but keep d6 hit dice...and I'd have to take a level in something other than bard, because I'd need to gain proficiency in all martial weapons.

It still looks like going to Abjurant Champion is what I want to do to boost my hit dice and BAB. The final build will probably end up looking like Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Bard 3. Casting as a 15th level bard with some solid hit dice and BAB boosted with snowflake wardance and dragonfire inspiration picking up on damage. Just wanted to see if there was something else available that I should look into. Thanks for all your help, folks! Still welcoming suggestions happily.

[herrhauptmann]

That's about right

RE: Bladesinger - Is there really a benefit to taking this class? You lose caster levels, and the various class features are...incredibly underwhelming. Not to mention the ridiculous feat requirements (which include dodge, combat expertise, and weapon focus!). This seems more oriented towards fighter/wizards than bards.

RE: Spellsword - Easy to qualify for, so better than Bladesinger, but also suffers from the lost spell level problem, combined with Channel Spell not being particularly useful for someone with the bard spell list.

RE: Eldritch Knight - Lose a caster level, gain a fighter feat...but keep d6 hit dice...and I'd have to take a level in something other than bard, because I'd need to gain proficiency in all martial weapons.

It still looks like going to Abjurant Champion is what I want to do to boost my hit dice and BAB. The final build will probably end up looking like Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Bard 3. Casting as a 15th level bard with some solid hit dice and BAB boosted with snowflake wardance and dragonfire inspiration picking up on damage. Just wanted to see if there was something else available that I should look into. Thanks for all your help, folks! Still welcoming suggestions happily.

Yeah, I admit I hadn't looked at the prereqs for those PrCs when I posted. I was just trying to get more options out there beyond what people have suggested.
If you're willing to lose some casting, check out the Witchslayer in ToM. Some of the abilities are made to counter binders, but the capstone is awesome for a melee character "Momentary Disjunction". And its only a level 5 PrC.

[DragoonWraith]

You don't actually have the BAB for swiftblade at bard 1 (bab 0), wizard 5 (bab 2). Maybe if using fractional BAB, but otherwise no.

There is no other sane way to play. I assume fractional BAB/saves always.

[herrhauptmann]

There is no other sane way to play. I assume fractional BAB/saves always.

For a given definition of sane...
Some would say we're crazy to spend this kind of time and money (for those who don't download books) in a game that is essentially "Let's play pretend."
Anyway, fractional bab and saves are alternate rules, so not every DM will allow them. Would work better to limit suggestions to things which don't require variations.
But yes, fractional bab and saves are so much better if you're doing a lot of multiclassing.