Is this a good cleric

[Os1ris09]

Is this build a good cleric build?

Dragon-wrought Kobold

Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 5/ Divine Oracle 6/ Prestige Paladin 1/ Comtemplative 6

[PhoenixRivers]

Depends. If you take the Battle Blessing feat, it could rock out pretty well.

[magic9mushroom]

A question: Why bother with Cheesewrought and half a dozen prestige classes (including one from Unearthed Arcana) when you could probably do better with Human Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Cleric +5?

I mean, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it, none of those prestige classes lose anything but Cleric levels for domain powers and Turn Undead, but it just seems needlessly overcomplicated (and, hence, more likely to get banned).

Also. Yes, it is a Good cleric. A Lawful Good cleric, to be precise.

[PhoenixRivers]

A question: Why bother with Cheesewrought and half a dozen prestige classes (including one from Unearthed Arcana) when you could probably do better with Human Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Cleric +5?

I mean, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it, none of those prestige classes lose anything but Cleric levels for domain powers and Turn Undead, but it just seems needlessly overcomplicated (and, hence, more likely to get banned).

Also. Yes, it is a Good cleric. A Lawful Good cleric, to be precise.

It's hard to top Prestige Paladin 1 and Battle Blessing. It's basically like DMM quicken, once per round, without having to burn turn attempts.

[KellKheraptis]

Get the DM to rule that Sword of the Arcane Order meets the requisites of an Initiate feat and you get the entire Sor/Wiz list too :P

[magic9mushroom]

It's hard to top Prestige Paladin 1 and Battle Blessing. It's basically like DMM quicken, once per round, without having to burn turn attempts.

Dweomerkeeper gets free Miracle and True Rez. And a -1 to all metamagic costs, too.

[Kish]

I would guess that the Prestige Paladin class still has the alignment requirement, so yes, it's a Lawful Good cleric.

[PhoenixRivers]

Dweomerkeeper gets free Miracle and True Rez. And a -1 to all metamagic costs, too.

If I had to choose, I'd go with a free quicken to all spells.

Luckily, you can do:

Cleric 5 / Prestige Paladin 1 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Cleric +4

[paddyfool]

Fine, for a very high-powered campaign. Probably OP for a lot of groups, however, and you'd really better clear the cheesewrought and taking four different prestige classes with your DM. Given that straight cleric is a Tier 1, do you really need all this?

[magic9mushroom]

If I had to choose, I'd go with a free quicken to all spells.

Luckily, you can do:

Cleric 5 / Prestige Paladin 1 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Cleric +4

Point. But I'd think a lot of DMs would be less likely to ban something if you only take 1 PrC and follow it the whole way through, rather than splicing 4.

[Optimystik]

I would guess that the Prestige Paladin class still has the alignment requirement, so yes, it's a Lawful Good cleric.

It depends... since he's using UA anyway, his DM might let him Prestige any of the four variant paladins.

[magic9mushroom]

It depends... since he's using UA anyway, his DM might let him Prestige any of the four variant paladins.

Church Inquisitor says no.

[Optimystik]

Church Inquisitor says no.

Bah! I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

[Raendyn]

If I had to choose, I'd go with a free quicken to all spells.

If i am not mistaken.because a player sometime last week asked me about that.
battle blessing is for your paladin spells only not your cleric ones.

I know that prestige pala adds existing casster.but on the other hand...
It just has the word"paladin" in there,SO->>
I would definently nerf this down...naturally...
either softly:Quicken spells are drawn from paladin's spell list
Or even harder:Quicken only for the paladin spells you are able to cast.
& here also(if you have personal matters with that player,) apply paladin caster lvl & spell lvl able to cast.(ouch!)

Also magicmushroom is correct about:Why such complication?On the other hand find a good backround to support your build & i would accept it.

Lastly:I believe that most DM's would allow a 1 lvl prestige.IF you take a full prestige class.At least thats how things around my cliques go,take 10 lvl in a prestigue & then take 1 lvl for each of the other 4-6 lvls left.

[Mongoose87]

Bah! I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inqusition!

[Grommen]

The more I play, the more I see 1 class, perhaps 2, or a Prestige class as the max that should be allowed.

I really don't like when players fish for power rather than role playing. I'm sure it will kick butt and if your campaigns need that type of power level then it looks good. If not your just forcing your DM to power up to keep pace. To me your shopping for the power and not the flavor that comes with being a divine player. Clerics above all other classes have a direct link to the supernatural, and the divine. What else do you need?

A simple base line cleric has more whoop ass than most everyone else. Using Unearthed Arcanna and turning a cleric into a Prestige Palie is awesome as well. So would any of the other prestige classes you picked.

Just pick one and stick with it, you'll still be uber kool, and the DM will have to work a bit less to keep the bad guys in check. Less he is also making uber bad asses then well. Hay more power to you!

[Raging Gene Ray]

A question: Why bother with Cheesewrought and half a dozen prestige classes (including one from Unearthed Arcana) when you could probably do better with Human Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Cleric +5?

Don't you need to be able to cast Arcane spells to qualify for Dweomerkeeper? That would take at least one level of Wizard or Sorceror...maybe Prestige Bard. But still, how do you get around that requirement?

[Raendyn]

Don't you need to be able to cast Arcane spells to qualify for Dweomerkeeper? That would take at least one level of Wizard or Sorceror...maybe Prestige Bard. But still, how do you get around that requirement?

Well magicmushroom has a very "special" way to understand few feats(we had a hole thread discussing mostly about "alternative spell source")so i believe he'll probably pick this feat to qualify for the class.even thow all the ppl i know dissagree.
+1 to the " need 1 lvl wiz/sorc/whatever

Also +1 to grommen,pretty much what i said earlier more insightly though.

+1 to the (1-2 prestige max),but : a good background will open the way for more,(as i tell to my players)bring me a good story & you have it.This can also happen in game ==>
play it & i'll give it to you.(need to satisfy me though,not just play it.play it good!)

[Raging Gene Ray]

Well magicmushroom has a very "special" way to understand few feats(we had a hole thread discussing mostly about "alternative spell source")

I had to google it and while I can't speak for the OP, I think I can answer magic9mushroom's question about why he didn't just go Cleric/Dweomerkeeper:

Not many people even know what Dweomerkeeper is because they haven't read every single article ever published on the Wizards website. Even if he did, he wouldn't be able to just go straight to Dweomerkeeper unless he'd read every single Dragon Magazine and memorized every single feat.

Maybe I'm being too hard on magic9mushroom...and everyone else who assumes knowledge of every piece of errata. I'd just like to see less "why didn't you just take this obviously superior build?" and more "that's good, but have you heard of this build?"...followed by an explanation of where the feats/classes are from and what they do.

Oh, and to Os1ris09...what Domains are you taking? You should have 4 plus Oracle and Inquisition.

[SurlySeraph]

Get the DM to rule that Sword of the Arcane Order meets the requisites of an Initiate feat and you get the entire Sor/Wiz list too :P

Given that there already *is* an Initiate of Mystra feat, I do not expect that to be successful.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Might I suggest my Tainted Walker build?

Race: Grey Elf or Lesser Aasamir
Template (Taken Later in class prog.): Evolved Undead

V1: Archivist 8/Walker in the Wastes 10/Contemplative 1/Tainted Scholar 1
V2: Cleric 8/ WitW 10/Contemplative 1/Tainted Scholar 1

Feats: Metamagic Staples, Whatever tickles your fancy

[PhoenixRivers]

If i am not mistaken.because a player sometime last week asked me about that.
battle blessing is for your paladin spells only not your cleric ones.

I know that prestige pala adds existing casster.but on the other hand...
It just has the word"paladin" in there,SO->>
I would definently nerf this down...naturally...
either softly:Quicken spells are drawn from paladin's spell list
Or even harder:Quicken only for the paladin spells you are able to cast.
& here also(if you have personal matters with that player,) apply paladin caster lvl & spell lvl able to cast.(ouch!)

Also magicmushroom is correct about:Why such complication?On the other hand find a good backround to support your build & i would accept it.

Lastly:I believe that most DM's would allow a 1 lvl prestige.IF you take a full prestige class.At least thats how things around my cliques go,take 10 lvl in a prestigue & then take 1 lvl for each of the other 4-6 lvls left.

There are a lot of things that DM's may or may not nerf. That doesn't change that they exist and can be done, barring banning or fiat.

As for the "complication"???

Cleric 5 / Prestige Paladin 1 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Cleric +4
can be rewritten as:

Cleric 9 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Prestige Paladin 1

Which fulfills your suggestion of 1 level prc and another fully advanced PrC. It's actually much less complicated than it could be. Extra levels of Cleric do absolutely nothing over anything a PrC would do, for example. Yet there are 4 gratuitious levels at the end of the build. Those could be used on PrC's that grant mettle, extra domains, extra nifty abilities, and more.

But they're not. Because it's less complicated than you'd think.

[Raendyn]

As for the "complication"???

Cleric 5 / Prestige Paladin 1 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Cleric +4
can be rewritten as:

Cleric 9 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Prestige Paladin 1


But they're not. Because it's less complicated than you'd think.

honestly you think that any1 around here can missunderstand this???

Complicated was the original build. the 1 this thread opened for...

-There's no point in disscusing any other build in this thread unless there's something wrong with it & we comment about "fixing".

Also,i just said how me & most ppl i've disscussed some matters with,would react.
It just makes sense in doing something simple.Now if you can RP every action & class you take go on & shut everyones mouth,& i say that because it just dont make sense to pick something you obviously dont have any relation with.
-Let me give you an example:

A guy last time wanted to take a prestige class from "unaprochable east" while (even though we were at FR)the campaign was taling place at Baldur gate.His character (from mmy point of view)can not become any prestige from that book because his char just dont even know they exist,becoming one of them is not an option,it does not make sense.

You got my point?I know most will say that i should not comfuse flavor/rp with crunch,but i think the actual game is something different that a video game where you press the "lvl up" button when its highlighted,& you have all the options available to choose.

[Kylarra]

Is anyone else moderately amused by the denouncing of dragonwrought as cheese and then following that up by suggesting dweomerkeeper?

Other than the dragonwrought kobold aspect, the initial build proposed is "weaker" than anything involving dweomerkeeper.

[Keld Denar]

Yea. Kylarra's got it right.

My biggest beefs with the OP is that CI6 is arguably one of the best levels in the class, other than the 1st (yay free domains). It goes a long way toward giving your DM a headache because you just say "I see through that" or "no, it doesn't say that, it says this" or any number of illusion confusion based WTFs. That said, DO10 is also REALLY strong. Its the equivilent to PERMANANT Foresight. Never being flatfooted means never being denied the ability to use Immidate actions. Plus, you always get to act in the surprise round. Granted, its not hard to find ways to Persist Foresight, especially as a cleric *cough DMM cough*, but its still pretty nice. I like it on my wizards, due the the higher number of Immediate wizard spells, but clerics can still make good use of it.

I'd get only 1 level of Contemplative and shift 4 into finishing off DO and 1 to get to CI6.

Then again, there is more to a build than just levels. Great feats can make a Cleric20 into a monster, yet trashy feats can turn even the most rediculous cleric concept into something more in line with a T2 or even T3 class.

[magic9mushroom]

Don't you need to be able to cast Arcane spells to qualify for Dweomerkeeper? That would take at least one level of Wizard or Sorceror...maybe Prestige Bard. But still, how do you get around that requirement?

Well magicmushroom has a very "special" way to understand few feats(we had a hole thread discussing mostly about "alternative spell source")so i believe he'll probably pick this feat to qualify for the class.even thow all the ppl i know dissagree.
+1 to the " need 1 lvl wiz/sorc/whatever

Also +1 to grommen,pretty much what i said earlier more insightly though.

+1 to the (1-2 prestige max),but : a good background will open the way for more,(as i tell to my players)bring me a good story & you have it.This can also happen in game ==>
play it & i'll give it to you.(need to satisfy me though,not just play it.play it good!)

Alternative Source Spell isn't useful in this instance. Alternative Source Spell is useful to get "Xth level divine casting" (or arcane) with only 1 level's investment (and quite a bit of the other kind of casting).

What's useful in this instance is Magical Training, from Player's Guide to Faerun. Gives you the ability to cast 0th level arcane spells. Since you can cast arcane spells, you can get into Dweomerkeeper. Doesn't work in reverse though.

I had to google it and while I can't speak for the OP, I think I can answer magic9mushroom's question about why he didn't just go Cleric/Dweomerkeeper:

Not many people even know what Dweomerkeeper is because they haven't read every single article ever published on the Wizards website. Even if he did, he wouldn't be able to just go straight to Dweomerkeeper unless he'd read every single Dragon Magazine and memorized every single feat.

Maybe I'm being too hard on magic9mushroom...and everyone else who assumes knowledge of every piece of errata. I'd just like to see less "why didn't you just take this obviously superior build?" and more "that's good, but have you heard of this build?"...followed by an explanation of where the feats/classes are from and what they do.

It doesn't require Dragon Magazine. But yes. I have a very good memory for such things, and have an unfortunate tendency to assume others' are also as good. I'll explain now.

Dweomerkeeper is a 10-level prestige class in the free web supplement to Complete Divine (called "More Divinity"). It has a few requirements, the most annoying of which is the requirement to cast both divine and arcane spells (I outlined a way to get around it earlier in the post, but it's admittedly cheese). It advances one of your previous classes' casting, and also gives you a couple of abilities.

1) Mantle of Spells. Basically, you get to pick spells you can cast and become able to spontaneously cast them like cure spells. Pretty neat. You get a bigger mantle as you get more levels.

2) Arcane Sight. You get it as an at-will (Su) ability at 2nd level.

3) Supernatural Spell. This is the big one. Starting at 4th level you get the ability to cast spells as (Su) abilities. Importantly, this means no material components or XP costs. The potential for abuse here should be obvious.

4) Cloak of mysteries. This is the capstone. Basically, it's identical to Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic. Epic feats pre-epic are always nice. Helps out with DMM, too.

I suggested this because it has a similar level of power, but it's a lot less complicated. Simple is generally good.

Is anyone else moderately amused by the denouncing of dragonwrought as cheese and then following that up by suggesting dweomerkeeper?

Other than the dragonwrought kobold aspect, the initial build proposed is "weaker" than anything involving dweomerkeeper.

If you're talking about me, I wasn't precisely "denouncing" it as cheese (I mean, it is cheese, but he obviously wants the cheese, and that's his business). I was saying that it's needlessly complicated when, if you want power, dweomerkeeper can do it easily.

[Raging Gene Ray]

What's useful in this instance is Magical Training, from Player's Guide to Faerun. Gives you the ability to cast 0th level arcane spells. Since you can cast arcane spells, you can get into Dweomerkeeper. Doesn't work in reverse though.

Thank you...that seems like it should work...makes about as much sense as taking 1 level in Wizard and then only advancing Arcane.

I considered a few Dweomerkeeper builds after I tracked down that supplement. Ressurection without diamonds...that should be Artifact-level kind of power. All of them involved taking a 1 level dip in Mystic Theurge...because it didn't feel right just wasting 1 level in Wizard.

[magic9mushroom]

Thank you...that seems like it should work...makes about as much sense as taking 1 level in Wizard and then only advancing Arcane.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

All of them involved taking a 1 level dip in Mystic Theurge...because it didn't feel right just wasting 1 level in Wizard.

Again, I don't quite get it.

[Glimbur]

If all we need is arcane casting, isn't Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold a valid move? It does hurt a bit that you have to be a kobold and burn a feat on Dragonwrought, but on the other hand...

[Raging Gene Ray]

I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

Again, I don't quite get it.

Err...the first one was a typo. I meant to write Divine. I thought I'd have to take 1 level in Wizard to qualify for Dweomerkeeper, but to get things like Raise Dead that have the most expensive components, I'd have to only advance Divine spellcasting.

However, Dweomerkeeper only says you can advance one class at a time...it doesn't say that it can't be a PRESTIGE class, like Mystic Theurge...so, if I take 1 level in Mystic Theurge, I can advance that as a Dweomerkeepr, getting Supernatural Spell for high level Arcane AND Divine spells.

At least, that's how I chose to interpret it.