D&D 3.5 help with a gestalt campaign

[Naturebane]

I am DM for a gestalt campaign, my party is lvl 4 and have they have most recently killed on a CR 8 mind flayer and a CR 4 vaath which failed to kill one party member or at least drop one to 0hp and this was a two on two fight as the party split.

the party has:
stone giant "from savage species": stone giant, race of war Barbadian
warforged: archvest, crusader
elf: druid, sorcerer
1/2 elf: warmage, cleric
drow: monk,ninja,scout,fighter
dwarf: knight,fighter

So do you have any ideas on how to make this more of a challenging?

[Myou]

Stronger opponents.

[Naturebane]

but the party is taking on +4 cr when there is two of them and i dont want to end up throwing cr 18 opponents when they hit lvl 8

[Myou]

but the party is taking on +4 cr when there is two of them and i dont want to end up throwing cr 18 opponents when they hit lvl 8

A mind flayer isn't a good melee creature, it needs multiple minions to defend it, especially against a big party, so it's not a great test.

Try just increasing the number of each type of foe, or do what I do in my gestalt games - make opponents stronger. Higher saves/bab/damage/hp, etc. The CR, Wealth By Level and XP sytems are all just suggestions anyway.

[Ernir]

1. The opponents need more actions. You have an above-average sized party, which makes this especially vital. In the sample fight you gave, the PCs outnumbered the enemies 3 to 1. That alone means that the PCs got to have three times as many actions as the opponents, and because they are all gestalted, each of their actions should be exceedingly likely to actually have an effect. Mind Flayers can hit pretty hard, but when the PCs can hit it three times for every time it can hit them, it doesn't account for much.

2. Remember that plotting, planning, and running away isn't just for PCs. An intelligent, evil creature like a Mind Flayer isn't going to risk itself by getting into battle unless it is for some reason sure it is going to win.
Of course, it isn't much fun if the opponent are always right when they are sure they win, but still, no smart creature is going to voluntarily enter a fight if it thinks there's a good chance of the group of adventurers ending its life.

3. Gestalt the monsters too. Try gestalting the next Mind Flayer with 8 levels of Factotum.

[XiaoTie]

1. The opponents need more actions. You have an above-average sized party, which makes this especially vital. In the sample fight you gave, the PCs outnumbered the enemies 3 to 1.

I am DM for a gestalt campaign, my party is lvl 4 and have they have most recently killed on a CR 8 mind flayer and a CR 4 vaath which failed to kill one party member or at least drop one to 0hp and this was a two on two fight as the party split.

but the party is taking on +4 cr when there is two of them and i dont want to end up throwing cr 18 opponents when they hit lvl 8

But, yeah, OP, using everything else (tougher enemies, minions for the caster'y types, having the bad guys planning on the best way to get the party) is a good way to go.

You could also put up interesting terrain that could help either side in a fight, or maybe have more bad guys getting a jump on the party (flat-foot'dness/surprised is almost certainly a bad thing for a party of PCs).

[TheOOB]

Yeah, you just got to balance the encounters, and as mentioned make there be more monsters.

The truth is, Gestalt characters are really not any more powerful than normal characters(dodges thrown objects), they are just way more versatile. They still learn powerful spells at the same levels, they still have the same number of actions, they still have the same ability scores, they just have a larger pool of abilities to draw from.

I usually always treated a party of three gestalt characters the same as a party of four normal characters. The extra action per round the party of four has is roughly balanced by the superior spell and ability array(not to mention hp, BAB, and saves) that the three gestalt characters have. Ergo, a party of 6 gestalts should have encounters designed for them as if they where approximatly 8 people.

[Ernir]

Baaaaah, never post before morning coffee, Ernir...


But my points remain! MOAR actions work.

[Naturebane]

OK with the above example that was a 2 on 2 the dwarf + drow vs the example and the mind flayer was ambushing and thanks for the factotum idea.

i am now working on some terrain that fits with the campaign plot and will also use some of the fungus in the books.

thinking of using a hoard + ambush tactic for the next encounter and have the ground covered in oil then add kobolts with alchemist fire with a chromatic dragon probably red or something like that with fire immunity.hows that?

[PhoenixRivers]

A bit over the top.

Let's start this, top down.

Chromatic dragon (red). - Running the show.
- Servants: Kobolds - trap specialists

I'm with you so far.

Common denominator in the above: Darkvision. So, let's engage in darkness.

Common denominator in the above: Cave-dwelling. So, underground is an excellent opportunity.

So? Build a small dragon area... Say, a cave, the thing has recently possessed, gaining the fealty of the kobold tribe that was there.

Now: Kobolds are not immune to fire. So they're not gonna cover everything willy-nilly.

However, traps that dump large amounts of oil over a limited space (say, 10x10) could be effective, when paired with kobolds that have alchemist's fire, or a dragon's breath.

Similarly, cave deadfalls are nice, as the kobolds can create tunnels, and the dragon can burrow.

Information denial is the name of the game. If you can ensure that the PC's have a hard time getting through the lair, and seeing within it, you'll up the difficulty, without a blanket covering of the ground with oil that's likely hard for the kobolds to acquire.

[Naturebane]

hey thanks for the ideas the party will never forget the factotom mind flayer and the koblot ambush that both forced them to think rather then wading in swigging swords

dose anyone have a celestial, demon or devil encounter that would be rather challenging for the party??

[faceroll]

Quasitsc an be really nasty. I would have one for every character, so 6 total, using the elite array with charisma as their highest ability, and either advancing their HD or giving them a character level. Have them be invisible, then all jump the party, opening with their fear SLA. Forcing every character to make 6 saves vs. fear is likely to have at least one of them flee. Have the quasits retreat to hard to reach places and pepper the party with ranged attacks (alchemist fire or acid would be best), becoming invisible and moving to new places as soon as character can reach them. If any characters get isolated, they should be surrounded by invisible quasits that turn into wolves before breaking invisibility and swarm the lone PC. If they have trouble landing hits/tripping, have them use aid another. If they can isolate someone that looks like they have low fort save, have them make a bunch of claw & bite attacks to force fort saves vs. poison.

If they get injured, they turn invisible and retreat until their fast healing brings them up to positive.

but the party is taking on +4 cr when there is two of them and i dont want to end up throwing cr 18 opponents when they hit lvl 8

Use better tactics. A favorable battle environment for your monsters will make the PC's life hell.