(3.5) Warmage optimization?

[faceroll]

It's decent. 10/10 casting, easy prerequisites, a few useful abilities, three domains, and the ability to expand your spell list with useful spells such as Miracle.

Sure, it's better than straight sorcerer, but in terms of "breaking your game", it's not going to do it. It just offers a formalized way for sorcerers to do something they technically can already do- pick cleric spells to put on their spell lists.

In terms of power, I'd say it's similar to PF's sorcerer, just with a very specific heritage.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sure, it's better than straight sorcerer, but in terms of "breaking your game", it's not going to do it. It just offers a formalized way for sorcerers to do something they technically can already do- pick cleric spells to put on their spell lists.

A throwaway line that is never referred to or expanded on afterward does not let the Sorcerer choose Miracle as a spell known.

[faceroll]

A throwaway line that is never referred to or expanded on afterward does not let the Sorcerer choose Miracle as a spell known.

It's mentioned twice on the SRD:

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire

A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

"With permission", while it scares away CharOp, technically applies to EVERY prestige class.

[Gnaeus]

Wait... by that logic, you'd also stop qualifying for prestige classes if you got Int drained or Enervated.

I suppose you could if you got Int drained. It is the same as if you qualify for a prestige class by being human, then lose it if you are reincarnated. Or if you qualify by having a feat acquired from an item or other outside source, then lose its abilities if you lose the feat. In this case, you enter the class by having the ability to cast x level spell, then lose its abilities when you can't get the spell. You would of course regain all your abilities as long as you stayed in your sanctum.

This wouldn't be my preferred ruling, I think it is a little mean. I would just ban it. But if a PC forced the issue...

It's mentioned twice on the SRD:

"With permission", while it scares away CharOp, technically applies to EVERY prestige class.

Yep, I'd put that argument squarely in with Pun-Pun, the infinite damage crusader, kobolds with 2 free sorc levels and early entry tricks for PRCs. Maybe RAW legal, certainly twisted and never in my game.

[faceroll]

Yep, I'd put that argument squarely in with Pun-Pun, the infinite damage crusader, kobolds with 2 free sorc levels and early entry tricks for PRCs. Maybe RAW legal, certainly twisted and never in my game.

Twisted? Really? It's extraordinarily explicit and self contained. The intent is extremely obvious, unlike using three books published years apart by different authors to get 2 free sorc levels, which is arguably a totally unintended rules interpretation.

There's not much of a problem with a sorcerer learning Blade Barrier or Harm instead of Acid Fog or Tenser's Transformation.

Is it abusable? Certainly; virtually everything is. But it's also very explicit that you ask the DM, he thinks about it, then says yes or no. That's why you never see it in CharOp- it's too explicitly out of the player's hands.

[Douglas]

The intent is extremely obvious

If you mean the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn cleric or druid or <insert class> spells with study, then you are wrong. I happen to think that the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access (such as if your DM requires special effort to acquire spells from outside core) spells with their spells known (counting towards and subject to the normal limits on number of spells known, of course) in much the same way a wizard could put them in his spellbook. I am firmly convinced that the word "unusual" in those two sentences is intended to mean spells that are unusual for the entire game, as custom homebrewed and researched spells would be, rather than merely unusual for the Sorcerer class even though standard for other classes.

Now, regardless of which one of us (if either) is right about the intent, the simple fact that we disagree on it means that unless one of our opinions is in a very small minority the intent is, in fact, not obvious.

[faceroll]

If you mean the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn cleric or druid or <insert class> spells with study, then you are wrong. I happen to think that the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access (such as if your DM requires special effort to acquire spells from outside core) spells with their spells known in much the same way a wizard could put them in his spellbook.

So you learn the homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access spell Briar Patch, which is mechanically identical to the Druid spell Wall of Thorns. The rules there basically say "if it's not on the sorcerer/wizard list, you can learn it if the DM oks it".

Now, regardless of which one of us (if either) is right about the intent, the simple fact that we disagree on it means that unless one of our opinions is in a very small minority the intent is, in fact, not obvious.

No, you're being difficult, to gain e-points on the internet.

[Douglas]

So you learn the homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access spell Briar Patch, which is mechanically identical to the Druid spell Wall of Thorns.

I'd call that skirting the rules on a technicality, not creating a new and unusual spell.

The rules there basically say "if it's not on the sorcerer/wizard list, you can learn it if the DM oks it".

Anything is ok if the DM oks it. They didn't need to say anything for that to be true. The rule is there in my opinion to point out and suggest that researching new spells should not be limited to wizards, not to suggest that Sorcerers should be able to ignore their class list.

[faceroll]

I'd call that skirting the rules on a technicality, not creating a new and unusual spell.

I think an arcane version of a typically divine spell would qualify as both new and unusual, but ok.

Anything is ok if the DM oks it. They didn't need to say anything for that to be true.

Doesn't Rule 0 have to be a rule for it to be a rule?

There are numerous places where the written rules reinforce that the DM should be involved in player decisions, especially prestige class acquisition. There seem to be "hard" rules (this is what BAB does, this is how a standard action works, here's how you move through difficult terrain) that are to always be enforced, and "soft" rules (arcane sword sage, non-evil ur-priest, LA buy-off, stat generation) where the rules suggest a higher degree of DM oversight and interference. A sorcerer picking up a cleric spell seems to be one of these soft rules. Of course a DM could change a hard rule, but the underlying assumption of D&D is that the core mechanic doesn't need meddling with.

The rule is there in my opinion to point out and suggest that researching new spells should not be limited to wizards, not to suggest that Sorcerers should be able to ignore their class list.

No one is saying that sorcerers should be able to ignore their class list, just that they can pick up spells not on their spell list with DM oversight.