Templates that aren't worth it (3.5)

[Tanuki Tales]

What template or templates, in your guys personal opinions, look like something you would totally take if not for a LA that's too much to stomach or it just was never meant for players.

Mine have to be Vampire Lord and Monster of Legend

[AirGuitarGod32]

What template or templates, in your guys personal opinions, look like something you would totally take if not for a LA that's too much to stomach or it just was never meant for players.

Mine have to be Vampire Lord and Monster of Legend

definately Half-Golem for my #1. Seriously? -6 int? In english, you become a functioning re****.

also, I would like to add most Half-X templates, minus Fey and (In some cases) Dragon. Too much LA for not enough bonuses. (However, I did play a Half-Fire Elemental Earth Elemental Monk/Tatooed Monk. He was a blast.)

Plus, Insectoid (Unless you're using Thri-Kreen/Gorillian soulbow or monk cheese) isn't worth it. Four bonus arms that cant hold a weapon? Is there a point?

Lastly, I point my lichly finger at (to some degree) Evolved Undead. For +1 LA, you gain some minor bonuses and a SLA. For NPCs, this is nearly broken. In all other cases, mainly PCs, undead already have a painful LA/HD. Why add more???

[Tanuki Tales]

Lastly, I point my lichly finger at (to some degree) Evolved Undead. For +1 LA, you gain some minor bonuses and a SLA. For NPCs, this is nearly broken. In all other cases, mainly PCs, undead already have a painful LA/HD. Why add more???

Never heard of Necropolitan? It's from the same book and works wonders for either a Cheap Lich or as a stay over for some builds until you can get high enough for Lichdom.

[Volkov]

For NPC's? Draconic...It just doesn't give you a whole lot... For PCs, Vampire...sure you get lots of nice powers, but they slap you with a huge LA and a crap ton of weaknesses and methods to kill you very, very quickly. The sheer number of cons just so greatly outweigh the pros.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Never heard of Necropolitan? It's from the same book and works wonders for either a Cheap Lich or as a stay over for some builds until you can get high enough for Lichdom.

Most undead, except this one, have lots of HD and/or painful LA. Look at Vampire, Lich, and Mummy, then add at least +1 LA, depending on the sicko's ideas. Really?

That said, necropolitan is alright to say the least. Its not my cup of tea, but its a good overall low-level undead.

[Zanatos777]

What template or templates, in your guys personal opinions, look like something you would totally take if not for a LA that's too much to stomach or it just was never meant for players.

Mine have to be Vampire Lord and Monster of Legend

I have to agree that Vampire Lord was clearly never intended for players to use. Most templates are not as good as for players though.

...Actually when I check Vampire Lord doesn't have LA above what the normal Vampire template has.

[Tanuki Tales]

Most undead, except this one, have lots of HD and/or painful LA. Look at Vampire, Lich, and Mummy, then add at least +1 LA, depending on the sicko's ideas. Really?

That said, necropolitan is alright to say the least. Its not my cup of tea, but its a good overall low-level undead.

It's arguable whether the Lich is a bad idea or not and you really only cited examples of Undead that players would be dumb to play from a mechanics stand point. This doesn't make Evolved Undead a bad template.

@Zanatos: But it requires you to be at almost end game levels to acquire.

[Brackenlord]

It's arguable whether the Lich is a bad idea or not and you really only cited examples of Undead that players would be dumb to play from a mechanics stand point.

In fact Lich is a very bad template for a spellcaster in pre-epic. If you are a divine caster, Walker in the Waste => Dry Lich is way better (5 conopyc jars for the win).

Celestial/fiendish definetely fall in the category not worth it.

[AirGuitarGod32]

It's arguable whether the Lich is a bad idea or not and you really only cited examples of Undead that players would be dumb to play from a mechanics stand point. This doesn't make Evolved Undead a bad template.

Also, I would like to add Incorporeal undead in most cases. Granted, Undead are neigh unstoppable for "good" builds (See Tainted Scholar abuse), Evolved simply seems excessive to say the least, when most of the SLAs are obtained by any caster

[AirGuitarGod32]

{Scrubbed}

[SurlySeraph]

Vampire and Wight. Vampire has near-crippling weaknesses even without the LA, and for both of them you're basically trading 8 levels for undead-ness, some stat boosts, and level drain.

I thought Swordwraith was worth it when I thought it was LA +2. Which I would play it at. At LA +3, I don't think so.

[Tanuki Tales]

Celestial/fiendish definetely fall in the category not worth it.

You are aware this thread is for template you would want to use if not for too much LA or a lack of LA, yes?

@Surly: Wight only has a +4 LA though.

[AirGuitarGod32]

You are aware this thread is for template you would want to use if not for too much LA or a lack of LA, yes?

@Surly: Wight only has a +4 LA though.

@Surly: I see your point on how wight is underpowered for 4LA, however I would run a wight in an all-undead party if I wanted to run a skillmunky

@Bendraesar: You've undermined me at every turn....

However, I took the title as a forum on Templates that aren't good choices for PCs, not just due to LA.

and for another insert: Incarnate Construct. I see how it's SUPPOSED to work, but what most players don't realise is that most constructs lack a LA altogether, so how is this supposed to run?

[AirGuitarGod32]

I thought Swordwraith was worth it when I thought it was LA +2. Which I would play it at. At LA +3, I don't think so.

LA+3 is decent for a melee-inclined PC. However, the idea of a "Swordwraith Wizard" is definately non-optimal.

All in all, undeath is good only if you want to fear the sun and any nutcase with a holy symbol. However, if done right (See my remake of Strahd), undead are invaluable as both PCs and as Villains.

[SurlySeraph]

You are aware this thread is for template you would want to use if not for too much LA or a lack of LA, yes?

@Surly: Wight only has a +4 LA though.

...source? I don't know where I got +8 from, I got +8 from its Savage progression, which is on the WotC website, and from its lack of listed LA in the SRD. If it's +4, I know what my next character is going to be.

LA+3 is decent for a melee-inclined PC. However, the idea of a "Swordwraith Wizard" is definately non-optimal.

3 levels is pretty bad for any character (3 less BAB, one less feat, etc.), and adding to that the requirement that it have Fighter levels (which means you need to work Fighter in there early on, which makes ToB non-viable unless you read one of the Warblade's abilities in a weird way). 3 levels to get to do Str damage on your attacks, decent DR, undead immunities, and a few minor things just isn't worth it.

[Tanuki Tales]

@Bendraesar: You've undermined me at every turn....

However, I took the title as a forum on Templates that aren't good choices for PCs, not just due to LA.

and for another insert: Incarnate Construct. I see how it's SUPPOSED to work, but what most players don't realise is that most constructs lack a LA altogether, so how is this supposed to run?

A thread is more then a title. I did specifically state that I was speaking of templates you would use yourself if not for too much LA for what it gives or for the fact it lacks LA/is more meant for DM use.

*shrugs* That template kind of sucks anyways. I don't see the point to use it at all. The spell to apply it is 9th level anyways and you've got way better uses for a 9th level spell. Like Awaken Construct.

@Surly: The Wight template itself is from Savage Species. I know they have a Wight Savage progression in Libris Mortis but that is just kind of stupid to use in my opinion. It saddles you with 4 Racial Hitdice and then the 4 LA.

[AirGuitarGod32]

A thread is more then a title. I did specifically state that I was speaking of templates you would use yourself if not for too much LA for what it gives or for the fact it lacks LA/is more meant for DM use.

*shrugs* That template kind of sucks anyways. I don't see the point to use it at all. The spell to apply it is 9th level anyways and you've got way better uses for a 9th level spell. Like Awaken Construct.

@Surly: The Wight template itself is from Savage Species. I know they have a Wight Savage progression in Libris Mortis but that is just kind of stupid to use in my opinion. It saddles you with 4 Racial Hitdice and then the 4 LA.

To Bendraesar: My mistake! And to incarnate construct, its useful for literally one monster: Maug. In essence, you get Giant type, +10 Str, +4 Dex, and a buttload of NA for +1LA

[SurlySeraph]

@Surly: The Wight template itself is from Savage Species. I know they have a Wight Savage progression in Libris Mortis but that is just kind of stupid to use in my opinion. It saddles you with 4 Racial Hitdice and then the 4 LA.

Thanks. I assume it's basically the Savage progression minus the hit dice and their associated benefits?

[Tanuki Tales]

Thanks. I assume it's basically the Savage progression minus the hit dice and their associated benefits?

Yup. It's a Wight with out the HD as far as I know. Let me find my copy and give a double check.

@Air: Yeah, Maug is probably the only target worth it.

[Volkov]

To Bendraesar: My mistake! And to incarnate construct, its useful for literally one monster: Maug. In essence, you get Giant type, +10 Str, +4 Dex, and a buttload of NA for +1LA

Thats...really damned broken...

[Tanuki Tales]

Thats...really damned broken...

What it exactly gets is the following:

- Giant type
- 2 Racial HD
- 40 ft speed
- +7 NA
- +10 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha

all for +1 LA.

Though it loses its Spell Resistance.

[Volkov]

What it exactly gets is the following:

- Giant type
- 2 Racial HD
- 40 ft speed
- +7 NA
- +10 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha

all for +1 LA.

Though it loses its Spell Resistance.

That's still...very..very broken...That's a lot of strength for only +1 la. And I mean a lot.

[JaronK]

Still not as good as Half Minotaur, which gives even more strength for 1 LD and no racial HD.

Which is why the Half Dragon just can't keep up.

JaronK

[Tanuki Tales]

Still not as good as Half Minotaur, which gives even more strength for 1 LD and no racial HD.

Which is why the Half Dragon just can't keep up.

JaronK

You'd think they'd beef it up to at least give some kind of Fearful Presence or Spell Resistance or Damage Reduction. Or maybe count them as True Dragons.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

and for another insert: Incarnate Construct. I see how it's SUPPOSED to work, but what most players don't realise is that most constructs lack a LA altogether, so how is this supposed to run?

Feral Half-Minotaur Incarnate Wargorged.

Yeah, it's basically only good for cheese.

[Tanuki Tales]

Feral Half-Minotaur Incarnate Wargorged.

Yeah, it's basically only good for cheese.

Can those first two even be applied legally to a Warforged?

[Raiki]

Can those first two even be applied legally to a Warforged?

They can after you add the Incarnate Construct template, making the warforged a Giant.

Welcome to TS101: Template Stacking For Fun And Profit. Class runs every day between the hours of 12am and 11:59pm, here on the GitP boards.

~R~

[Tanuki Tales]

They can after you add the Incarnate Construct template, making the warforged a Giant.

Welcome to TS101: Template Stacking For Fun And Profit. Class runs every day between the hours of 12am and 11:59pm, here on the GitP boards.

~R~

Ah, of course. Sorry, brain farted there and forgot Incarnate meant Incarnate Construct. Was thinking of that Savant template from Complete Psionic for some reason.

[Brackenlord]

You are aware this thread is for template you would want to use if not for too much LA or a lack of LA, yes?

My mistake!

Talking about templating a warforged, it isn't much optimal but is possible to play a Soulfused Quorcraft Warforged, since Quorcraft turns you into a regular mindless construct.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

That's still...very..very broken...That's a lot of strength for only +1 la. And I mean a lot.

You couldn't pay me to play that at ECL3. ECL1 or 2? maybe