Swordsage questions

[Zergrusheddie]

Looking through Google, I could not find any Swordsage advice guides. I have been trying to build a UA Swordsage for a while now but I am more or less clueless. So, general questions:

1. It seems counterproductive to use Maneuvers considering you only get a single attack. What makes them so great?

2. Is Two-Weapon Fighting a decent choice for UA Swordsages? I know that the general rule of being decent with TWF is bonus attack dice.

3. Feats, feats, and feats. Adaptive Style at level 1 obviously, but from there I am clueless.

4. General advice on what Schools to use..

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

[Overshee]

Looking through Google, I could not find any Swordsage advice guides. I have been trying to build a UA Swordsage for a while now but I am more or less clueless. So, general questions:

1. It seems counterproductive to use Maneuvers considering you only get a single attack. What makes them so great?

2. Is Two-Weapon Fighting a decent choice for UA Swordsages? I know that the general rule of being decent with TWF is bonus attack dice.

3. Feats, feats, and feats. Adaptive Style at level 1 obviously, but from there I am clueless.

4. General advice on what Schools to use..

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

I know very little about Swordsages or ToB but this might help: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...hp?topic=357.0

[Dusk Eclipse]

YAY more love for the swordsage!!

The best advice depends on what you want to do with your swordsage, besises IIRC there was a general ToB guide in BG, I will try to find a link.

1-IMO the swordsage isn't a damage dealer that needs to deal enormous quantities of damage per turn, since many of the manoubers have some extra effects they are quite worthwile.

2-I don't think that two-weapon fighting is useful to a swordsage unless he plans on investing heavily on Tiger Claw which has some really good boosts that depends on number of attacks connecting, from the top of my head Girallon Windmill Rip can give you up to `20d6 damage. Also the prg class Bloodclaw master is specially designed for Two-weapon fighting

3- Shadow blade is an exelent feat IMO for an Unarmed swordsage, since US count as associated weapons you can add your DEX mod to your damage when you are on a shadow hand stance, also snap kick to get you another attack, superior unarmed strike to increase your damage.... I am big fan of Darkstalker (LoM) for sneaky swordsages.

4- I am a big fan of shadow hand and tiger claw with a bit of smithers of Diamond mind, but as always it depends on your goal, for example a good damage dealer will focus on Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and Damond Mind while a mobility fighter would prefer Shadow Hand (teleportation manoubers) desert wind (the whole point of the school) or tiger claw (has some nice movement based manoubers)

Hope that helps.

[Keld Denar]

Swordsages are all about options. Some strikes are REALLY good. At low levels, Saphire Nightmare Blade is pretty sexy, and some of the mid level strikes that deny your opponent actions are also really nice, as are some of the Shadow Hand ambush attacks like Shadow Garrote. Sometimes its good though, to do a boost and with Snap Kick and maybe some form of natural attack (Deepspawn!) and make a large number of hits, like if you are fighting more than one enemy.

There is very little way to make a bad Swordsage. Superior Unarmed Strike is great, Shadow Blade is pretty good if you plan on being in a SH stance a lot and using SH weapons (UAS's are SH weapons, BTW), Snap Kick gives you an extra attack, even when you use strikes, to pile on a bit of extra UAS damage. Its all good.

[Viletta Vadim]

1. It seems counterproductive to use Maneuvers considering you only get a single attack. What makes them so great?

2. Is Two-Weapon Fighting a decent choice for UA Swordsages? I know that the general rule of being decent with TWF is bonus attack dice.

3. Feats, feats, and feats. Adaptive Style at level 1 obviously, but from there I am clueless.

1) Well, when a Swordsage gets +6 BAB, she's level 8, meaning she has access to 4th-level maneuvers and Ruby Nightmare Blade which doubles damage, arguably including things that don't normally multiply. So, instead of two attacks, one of them at a penalty, you get one attack that (pending a Concentration check) deals double damage. Good times. Come 8th-level, Diamond Nightmare is quadruple. And a lot of the other effects are shiny and fancy and stuff.

Also, a lot of maneuvers provide swanky defenses and effects without getting in your way, like replacing all three saves with Concentration checks, or infinite teleportation, or hardness penetration for the purposes of smashing things, or the ability to reroll saves.

2) Two-weapon fighting still sucks. Especially since they don't help many maneuvers at all. Especially for an unarmed Swordsage who doesn't want to be using maneuvers anyways.

3) Shadow Blade, as mentioned, is great. It pretty much locks you to Shadow Hand stances, but it's worth it. Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual) is a must, as is Superior Unarmed Strike. If you have Magic of Incarnum, then Shape Soulmeld can get you all kinds of fancy, useful effects.

[Soranar]

Alright a couple of things

First I think swordsages get more out of their stances than their maneuvers unlike Warblades and Crusaders.

A swordsage's best attribute is his access to shadow hand maneuvers/stances. He is the only class that has access to them directly and is clearly meant to use them. A swordsage is a monk/rogue/ranger while the other two are more Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian.

In my opinion, a swordsage is a good build because of a single feat: shadow blade. Replacing your Dex bonus to your Str makes you capable of creating proper Dex based builds that do a lot of damage on normal hits. You can safely spend the stats to be able to use Two-Weapon fighting feats without completely crippling your damage output. It could be debated whether your Dex bonus is reduced by half on your offhand weapons, and it mostly depends on your DM's ruling. If it is, than is should also be 1.5 while using a 2 handed weapon (spiked chain) , if it isn't then I would go TWF. I usually prefer the spiked chain because so much Dex gives you a lot of AoO.

Finally don't forget that you add your Wisdom bonus on strikes, and static bonuses are multiplied on a crit.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fun combo: Evasive Reflexes allows you to 5' every time you would make an AoO. Robilar's Gambit allows you to AoO before an attack. You basically get Abrupt Jaunt, but better, for 2 feats.

[Zergrusheddie]

Hmm, does the UA adaption actually give you Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmm, does the UA adaption actually give you Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat?

I normally treat as so, since it gives "as monk" but ultimately It is up to DM

also Soranar, Shadow blade doesn't replace STR in damage it ADDS dex to damage so it is even better, although yes you can make a proper dex buil dumping STR

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hmm, does the UA adaption actually give you Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat?

It gives you the entire monk unarmed strike entry.

Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monkswordsage gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’sswordsage's attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monkswordsage may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monkswordsage may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’sswordsage's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’sswordsage's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monkswordsage's also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monksswordsages. A Small monkswordsage deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monkswordsage deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

[Tinydwarfman]

Hmm, does the UA adaption actually give you Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat?

I always played that it did. Would be pretty suck if it didn't.
As for feats:
Dump STR completely. Take weapon finesse and shadow blade for everything to be based off dex.
Adaptive style obviously.
Superior unarmed strike + Improved Nat attack for your fists.
Snap kick plus a two level dip into monk could be pretty sexy.
Two weapon fighting isn't that amazing, but can be pretty good. If you can convince your DM that it should be upgraded (which it shouold be) definetly take it.

The best thing about the swordsage is it's versitility, so grab a range of maneuvers to switch up with adaptive style.

Thats all for the first few levels. Tell us a bit about your character concept so we can fill it out.

[Draz74]

TWF can work well for a Swordsage, but if you want it, you definitely have to specialize in it to keep it worthwhile. If you have two Kukris, Improved Critical (kukri), Blood in the Water, ways to move and still make a full attack (e.g. Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Quicksilver Motion), Danging Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, maybe a one-level Rogue dip and the Craven feat, and maybe some of the Desert Wind ____ Blade Boosts, then yes, two-weapon fighting can definitely deal terrifying amounts of damage. But such a character will never be able to specialize in some of the other cool options that the Swordsage can pick, like Shadow Blade/Gloom Razor or the Setting Sun Tripping madness.

Oh, and while you should definitely take Adaptive Style early, it's not a crime to put it off later than 1st level.

Basically, what kind of Swordsage do you want to be? The Unarmed variant narrows down some of your choices, but you could still go with a judo throwing master, a ninja, or a monk type, just to name three.

[Zergrusheddie]

Thats all for the first few levels. Tell us a bit about your character concept so we can fill it out.

I like the concept of the Unarmed Warrior but I think Monks were made poorly. It almost seems like they were given too many colorful things (Slow Fall, Movement Speed, Still Mind) and were deprived of decent combat skills to compensate for all the small bonuses they got.

[Faleldir]

Robilar's Gambit allows you to AoO before an attack.

Are you sure about that?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Are you sure about that?

I was wrong. I thought it did, but it's specifically called out as not. Dang.

[Draz74]

I like the concept of the Unarmed Warrior but I think Monks were made poorly. It almost seems like they were given too many colorful things (Slow Fall, Movement Speed, Still Mind) and were deprived of decent combat skills to compensate for all the small bonuses they got.

OK, in that case I'd suggest you spend your first two feats on Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, so that you can rock the house with Setting Sun "___ Throw" maneuvers. Other Setting Sun stuff isn't exactly bad for the monk archetype either (and Baffling Defense is, IMHO, the coolest maneuver in the book).

Adaptive Style and Snap Kick are high-priority feats too, but AS can wait until after Improved Trip, and Snap Kick you can't get until Level 9 anyway.

Shadow Hand will have some decent pickings for you. Well, actually, you might just dip into all six Swordsage disciplines here and there. But Setting Sun and Diamond Mind will be your best two.

[Zergrusheddie]

The thing with taking Improved Trip is that you become MAD very quickly. I have not looked at the throw maneuvers in a while. What is so great about them again?

[Runestar]

1. It seems counterproductive to use Maneuvers considering you only get a single attack. What makes them so great?

They are comparable to a full attack, since your strikes tend to deal extra damage and/or have a secondary effect. Plus, you are able to move and still strike, which gives you advantage compared to classes normally reliant on the full attack action for the bulk of their damage, such as the fighter or barb.

Makes combat more dynamic, rather than just 5-ft move+full attack.

2. Is Two-Weapon Fighting a decent choice for UA Swordsages? I know that the general rule of being decent with TWF is bonus attack dice.

It is not too bad, since swordsages have quite a few maneuvers which grant bonus damage to each attack, such as shadow blade (dex to damage), assassin's stance (adds sneak attack), burning blade (adds fire damage) and wis mod to damage.

They can't used shields, and 2-handed weapons means they can't finesse (with exception of spiked chain). Though their bab isn't that great, and I would generally try to avoid decreasing it any further. Don't expect your iteratives to hit much, if at all.

3. Feats, feats, and feats. Adaptive Style at level 1 obviously, but from there I am clueless.

If you are not pumping str, weapon finesse and shadow blade are obvious choices (though blade locks you into shadow hand stances). Apart from that, there aren't really any "must-have" feats I can think of.

4. General advice on what Schools to use..

Depends really. I think swordsage is versatile enough that there is a viable build to take advantage of any of the various discipline (though some more than others).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The thing with taking Improved Trip is that you become MAD very quickly. I have not looked at the throw maneuvers in a while. What is so great about them again?

The Setting Sun maneuvers allow you to use Dex instead of Str for trips.

[Draz74]

The thing with taking Improved Trip is that you become MAD very quickly. I have not looked at the throw maneuvers in a while. What is so great about them again?

They're like tripping attacks (which is already a good thing) except they give you a +4 bonus to the trip and let you use your Dexterity instead of Strength if you want. And don't let your opponent have a chance to counter-trip you. And let you move the opponent around the battlefield when you trip them. (And don't provoke an AoO, but with Improved Trip you don't do that anyway.)

The Level 3, 4, and 5 versions do a lot of extra damage to the tripped target, too. The Level 6 version does a lot of damage to the target and to a line of targets he flies through. And the Level 9 version, besides doing damage, lets you run around and around the battlefield, throwing target after target within one round (which is great, if the DM rules you're allowed to throw the same target more than once).

[Zergrusheddie]

I can't find it, but is there/where is the rule saying you can only have 1 Maneuver loaded. I could have sworn there was something like that.

Do you get a free hit against someone you trip with a Maneuver if you have Improved Trip?

And thanks for helping everyone.
-Eddie

[Lycanthromancer]

I can't find it, but is there/where is the rule saying you can only have 1 Maneuver loaded. I could have sworn there was something like that.

And thanks for helping everyone.
-Eddie

You can have multiple maneuvers readied to use, although you can only have one of each readied at a time (I think; I don't recall that there's anything saying one way or the other, actually), but you can only use one maneuver of each type of action (swift/immediate, standard, and move, or a full-round action and a swift/immediate) per round...

[Draz74]

I can't find it, but is there/where is the rule saying you can only have 1 Maneuver loaded. I could have sworn there was something like that.

You mean only one copy of each maneuver? ToB never says so directly; it just talks about how each maneuver you know can be either "readied" or "not readied." Nothing about readying it multiple times.

But yeah, the FAQ or something makes it explicit.

Do you get a free hit against someone you trip with a Maneuver if you have Improved Trip?

Hmmm, by RAW, I think you would, if you somehow were able to still hit them after the maneuver moves them away from you. Carry a whip or some throwable daggers?

Of course, if the free attack afterward is important to you, you can always just use your Improved Trip without a Setting Sun Throw. Or just ask the DM if he'll allow not throwing them more than 5 feet when you throw them.

[Mongoose87]

Would the bonus to trip from the maneuvers stack with the bonus from Improved Trip?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Would the bonus to trip from the maneuvers stack with the bonus from Improved Trip?

Should. Untyped, different sources.

[Mongoose87]

Should. Untyped, different sources.

Heheheh...

*Drool*

[Runestar]

You are still limited to the "can't trip foes 2 or more size categories larger than you" clause though.

[Zergrusheddie]

You are still limited to the "can't trip foes 2 or more size categories larger than you" clause though.

I think that only applies to Grapple.

[Draz74]

I think that only applies to Grapple.

Nope. Sadly,

You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

It's a stupid rule that I, as a DM, would throw out in a heartbeat. But there it is.

[Vortling]

I think that only applies to Grapple.

It does apply to trip and it's only 1 size category larger than yourself. Not that it's too terribly hard to request an Enlarge person from the party wizard.