Snap Kick questions

[Gametime]

So, Snap Kick. Does it trigger as liberally as the wording implies, or is it restricted to when you use the attack action? Can I Snap Kick off an attack of opportunity? A Cleave attack?

Also, if I can Snap Kick from all those conditions, does the -2 penalty to attack stack cumulatively each time I kick, or just apply once?

[Person_Man]

In my games, yes, it applies to every attack. And yes, the penalties are cumulative. Works great with Grapple build.

[Keld Denar]

Its wierd, because if you compare it to any of the other abilities that give you extra attacks (Flurry of Blows, Flurry of Strikes, TWF, Rapid Shot, Slashing Fury), you have to pre-declare that you are using the action before you start attacking. If you have a +11 to hit, you can't start your attack at +11, then decide after the first shot that you want to Rapid Shot, and take another attack at +9. You have to commit to the action, and you take the penalty on all attacks made in the round.

At what time do you predeclare your total penalty for Snap Kick then?

[ericgrau]

An attack of opportunity is an attack action not a standard action nor full attack, so if I understand the feat correctly you cannot snap kick on an AoO. And if it applies a -2 to all attacks for the round, that includes attacks of opportunities.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.... You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round."

Therefore, assuming a Fighter 6 with TWF and ITWF with Snap Kick and Str 16, you could get the following attack routines by the most liberal interpretation:
Without using Snap-Kick: Main Hand +7/+2, Light Offhand +7/+2
With Snap-Kick: Main Hand +5/+0, Light Offhand +5/+0, and you'd get an unarmed strike at +5 for every melee attack you make, so this character would gain four such attacks. Since he's taking a -2 to all attacks this round for using Snap Kick, he would also get to make an additional unarmed strike on AoOs, Cleave attacks, Snake's Swiftness attacks, Haste attacks, etc. Every time he makes a melee attack, regardless of what type of action was used to make the attack (not limited to the examples given), he gets to make an unarmed strike as well. Note that this is the most liberal interpretation of its benefit, and the 'one or more melee weapons' portion of the first sentence could imply that only one such attack can be gained in any round that one or more melee attacks are made.

[Curmudgeon]

As I read this feat, you get one Snap Kick for each triggering condition. So one unarmed attack for each of the following:

• standard action attack
• full attack
• attack of opportunity
• bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip

[Gametime]

As I read this feat, you get one Snap Kick for each triggering condition. So one unarmed attack for each of the following:

• standard action attack
• full attack
• attack of opportunity
• bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip

This is how I initially interpreted it; I think it's the intended effect, anyway.

The fact that they say including standard attack, full attack, and strike maneuver seems to indicate that those aren't the only conditions for Snap Kick. It seems like it's basically Rapid Shot, except with far more potential situations to use it; for the -2 penalty to make sense, I think you do have to declare you're using the Snap Kick along with the other attacks.

[MlleRouge]

As I read this feat, you get one Snap Kick for each triggering condition. So one unarmed attack for each of the following:

* standard action attack
* full attack
* attack of opportunity
* bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip

I also agree with this. I'd also say that one would need to declare Snap Kick at the start of their action, since otherwise people could try to dodge the -2 penalty.

[FishAreWet]

This is how I initially interpreted it; I think it's the intended effect, anyway.

The fact that they say including standard attack, full attack, and strike maneuver seems to indicate that those aren't the only conditions for Snap Kick. It seems like it's basically Rapid Shot, except with far more potential situations to use it; for the -2 penalty to make sense, I think you do have to declare you're using the Snap Kick along with the other attacks.

Rapid Shot may only be used on full attacks. This is really really different.

[ericgrau]

"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.... You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round."

None of what I bolded is an attack action or attack of opportunity. Otherwise snap kick would trigger multiple times on a full attack since a full attack gives multiple attacks whose action type is no different from an attack of opportunity. For that matter the snap kick itself is an attack, so it would trigger on itself allowing for infinite attacks. Only 1 in 20 hit, but oh well. That's a strangely round-about way of saying "snap kick as many times as you want whenever you can attack"

... or you could use the interpretation given by the explanatory text and limit it to "including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver". "Including" implies that there could be other examples, but it is probable that all the common examples are already listed, and nothing else should be allowed unless it's a similar thing from another book they couldn't have known about.

[ForzaFiori]

None of what I bolded is an attack action or attack of opportunity. Otherwise snap kick would trigger multiple times on a full attack since a full attack gives multiple attacks whose action type is no different from an attack of opportunity. For that matter the snap kick itself is an attack, so it would trigger on itself allowing for infinite attacks. Only 1 in 20 hit, but oh well.

It says "including" not "only", meaning that those bold actions are some, but not all, of the things that make snap kick work.

[ericgrau]

See edit. It is highly improbable that they'd be so round-about about it and leave out such critical examples as... well, every attack you ever make including the snap kick itself and multiple triggers in every full attack. Each one of these attacks in a full attack is not the slightest bit different from the type of action an attack of opportunity is. That'd be an extremely odd way of saying you get several or perhaps even infinite snap kicks.

OR it is far more likely that "including" implies that there are other instances which the author does not know about and to otherwise stick to the examples listed.

OR the author himself is confused about the rules and the text is 100% ambiguous because we can't read his mind and thoughts on other situations. Then ask your DM.

[Gametime]

See edit. It is highly improbable that they'd be so round-about about it and leave out such critical examples as... well, every attack you ever make including the snap kick itself and multiple triggers in every full attack. Each one of these attacks in a full attack is not the slightest bit different from the type of action an attack of opportunity is. That'd be an extremely odd way of saying you get several or perhaps even infinite snap kicks.

OR it is far more likely that "including" implies that there are other instances which the author does not know about and to otherwise stick to the examples listed.

OR the author himself is confused about the rules and the text is 100% ambiguous because we can't read his mind and thoughts on other situations. Then ask your DM.

Except Snap Kick attacks are unarmed and thus wouldn't trigger another Snap Kick because the attack hasn't been made with a melee weapon.

And the attacks in a full attack are actually entirely different from the attacks in an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity are a limited type of free action. Full attacks are, well, a full-round action. Snap Kick's wording implies that it is related to an action involving a melee attack, so it triggers once per action and not once per attack.

That's why I related it to Rapid Shot - because although obviously Rapid Shot only works on full attacks, I think Snap Kick is meant to be declared before actually carrying out the action that allows it. Relating Snap Kick to actions involving melee attacks, and not to the attacks themselves, lends itself to a perfectly sensible feat, so I'm inclined to think that's the intent.

[faceroll]

Can you snap kick your snap kick?

[FishAreWet]

Except Snap Kick attacks are unarmed and thus wouldn't trigger another Snap Kick because the attack hasn't been made with a melee weapon.

Natural Attacks are melee weapons.

[PhoenixRivers]

The problem is that people are applying the attack to snap kick many times, but the penalty once.

Let's take a TWF character with a BAB of 8.

Makes four attacks at +11/+11/+6/+6 (+1 weapon and 18 str).

He makes the first attack, and decides to snap kick it. He takes a -2 penalty to attacks.

He gets +9/+9. He now has 3 remaining standard attacks (+9/+4/+4).

He makes the second attack, and decides to snap kick it. He takes an additional -2 penalty.

He gets +7/+7. He now has 2 remaining standard attacks (+2/+2)

He makes the third attack, and decides to snap kick it. He takes an additional -2 penalty.

He gets +0/+0. He has 1 remaining attack. (+0).

He makes the fourth attack, and decides to snap kick it. He takes an additional -2 penalty.

He gets -2/-2.

So he attacks at +9/+9/+7/+7/+0/+0/-2/-2.

If you're interpreting it that way, at least.

[Tokiko Mima]

Would Snap Kick work with Eldritch Glaive, you think? It's not a full attack action, but it is a melee attack with one or more weapons. Not like you'd normally want or even be able to do this, except in the case where you had two enemies in melee range or something.

[PhoenixRivers]

Would Snap Kick work with Eldritch Glaive, you think? It's not a full attack action, but it is a melee attack with one or more weapons. Not like you'd normally want or even be able to do this, except in the case where you had two enemies in melee range or something.

You can make a full attack action with an eldritch glaive. You can make AoO's, as well. Nothing prevents it.

[Curmudgeon]

Can you snap kick your snap kick?

Not if you read it the way I do. If your action includes a melee attack, you get a maximum of one Snap Kick unarmed attack with it, and you pay for it (in advance) with a -2 penalty to all attacks.

[ericgrau]

And the attacks in a full attack are actually entirely different from the attacks in an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity are a limited type of free action. Full attacks are, well, a full-round action. Snap Kick's wording implies that it is related to an action involving a melee attack, so it triggers once per action and not once per attack.

An attack of opportunity is an attack action. You get unlimited free actions per round. Each attack in a full attack is an attack action. There is no difference whatsoever in action types, only the means you used to get those actions.

IMO the actual intent is:
1. A standard action used to grant a melee weapon attack action may be used to grant one snap kick.
2. A full attack action used to grant multiple attack actions, including at least one melee weapon attack, may be used to grant one (and only one) snap kick.
3. A ToB manuever that involves a melee weapon attack, or any other class feature that involves a melee weapon attack may be used to grant one snap kick.
4. A mere attack action, including an attack of opportunity or individual attacks in a full attack action, probably were not meant to grant snap kicks.

Natural Attacks are melee weapons.

And if you believe a sage answer monks are allowed to snap kick as part of a flurry too. Yet another example of a kick granting a snap kick.

[Signmaker]

Not if you read it the way I do. If your action includes a melee attack, you get a maximum of one Snap Kick unarmed attack with it, and you pay for it (in advance) with a -2 penalty to all attacks.

I'm going to have to agree with this interpretation. It has less degeneration (and frankly, less headaches) than some of the other proposed ones.

[ericgrau]

The infinite attacks option was merely taking some other claims to their logical conclusion to show that they would make the explanatory text awfully confusing, and thus it is unlikely this interpretation is true. i.e., if you're going to use fuzzy logic to interpret a rule in your favor, I'm not about to let you be selective about it. I've actually been saying that all of these claims are silly, see above.

[Keld Denar]

Wow, I can't believe this, but I'm actually agreeing with Curmudgeon on an interpretation of the rules...

[Curmudgeon]

Wow, I can't believe this, but I'm actually agreeing with Curmudgeon on an interpretation of the rules...

It's not the first time, either. But you're violating our unspoken agreement to not mention these oddities; it's bad for both our reps.

[Darrin]

You can make a full attack action with an eldritch glaive. You can make AoO's, as well. Nothing prevents it.

Other than the rules, that is. Eldritch Glaive is a Spell-Like Ability that takes a full-round action to cast, which has a special rule that allows you to make multiple attack rolls based on your BAB. A full-attack is a different type of full-round action. The two actions aren't interchangeable. Certain abilities/effects don't necessarily trigger when you cast Eldritch Glaive as an SLA, but the wording/interpretation of whether it counts as a melee attack is a little ambiguous. Check with your DM on how he wants to treat it.

(Note: this allows a Warlock to get something very similar to a full attack while riding a mount, since he can cast an SLA with multiple attack rolls just fine while mounted, but is limited to one melee attack on a moving mount per the mounted combat rules no matter how many iteratives he may normally get.)

[PhoenixRivers]

Other than the rules, that is. Eldritch Glaive is a Spell-Like Ability that takes a full-round action to cast, which has a special rule that allows you to make multiple attack rolls based on your BAB. A full-attack is a different type of full-round action. The two actions aren't interchangeable. Certain abilities/effects don't necessarily trigger when you cast Eldritch Glaive as an SLA, but the wording/interpretation of whether it counts as a melee attack is a little ambiguous. Check with your DM on how he wants to treat it.

(Note: this allows a Warlock to get something very similar to a full attack while riding a mount, since he can cast an SLA with multiple attack rolls just fine while mounted, but is limited to one melee attack on a moving mount per the mounted combat rules no matter how many iteratives he may normally get.)

I've never seen a single DM that has ruled an iterative-based attack routine from an Eldritch Glaive Warlock as not a full attack. Ever.

In addition, if you make a melee attack roll, or a melee touch attack roll, regardless of anything else that is true? It is a melee attack.

AoO's are melee attacks. You don't take the standard or full round action to attack.
TOB Maneuvers have melee attacks. They are not the standard actions.

In other words? Melee attack and Full attack action are not interchangeable, nor are Melee attack and Attack Action. Many rules grant you the former without requiring you take the latter.

And all snap kick cares about is a melee attack. Not the action you took to get it.