Detective Class build help Please!

[andr3w1sh]

UPDATE! My GM says no psionics.

So I've been following these forums for a while and there are several people who sound like they know what they're talking about. I'm pretty new to D&D, only been playing for 6 or 8 months now, made the switch from Palladium games. I'm still playing my first ever character in a 3.5 campaign and I'm enjoying it pretty much but it's time for a new character and I need some help putting together what I want.

So here's the skinny. My GM is heavy on the role playing and likes for the party to have to do a lot of detective work, which I LOVE, currently being the most active finder-outer in the party. On that note, I want a character that is more specialized in detective work, but can hold his own in a scrap if he gets in a bad situation. Our party has a well-seasoned tank and like-wise healer/caster, but I am one of the primary damage dealers currently, and would like to stay that way.

Here's the challenging part. I want to be human, for the bonus feat and well because I want to. And I'm looking at multi-classing a Monk. I want to stay unarmed and unarmored, cause I think it's badass. That being said, I know the Monk class is light on feats and HD, and I've been looking at several builds that will get my HD up, crossing in Monk and Ranger till PRC is available, and that's where I hit the snag. Most of the builds I've seen are other races, changlings and half-orcs, to beat the HD cap. How can I deal decent unarmed damage and stay human? Psionic Fist? What else can I PRC that has unarmed bonuses for humans?

In keeping with the detective aspect I want to leave feat slots for things like Education and Able Learner, opening up all skills and knowledges. Search and spot heavy feats as well as sensory perceptions like Keen Ear Scout would be ideal as well.

In summation, I want to see and hear all the important little details and punch people to death. Like a walking encyclopedia with fists. So any help and suggestions you veterans out there have, please please please lay it on me. Thanks guys.

[gorfnab]

Factotums from Dungeonscape make really good detectives and pair nicely with the Able Learner feat. Since they have all skills as class skills you would save a feat by not needing Education. If you want to multiclass into monk from Factotum you'll want the feat Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor to avoid MAD.

Monks are okay at unarmed strikes but not the greatest. I would recommend the Unarmed Swordsage variant from Tome Of Battle instead of Monk. Also see if your DM will allow Carmendine Monk to work as Carmendine Swordsage since the Swordsage's AC bonus works very similar to the monk's.

Build ideas
Factotum with Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), Carmendine Monk, and a Monk's Belt - Lots more skill points and class features that work great for a detective, if you stay in the class all the way up you'll eventually have Int to AC twice at level 16

Unarmed Swordsage with Education - Many more options in combat than a monk, you could even take Knowledge Devotion for a nice boost as well if you plan on pumping up your Knowledge skills

Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior X - with the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona would make decent monk build, but not really much a detective build

[SethFahad]

hmmm... check Bloodhound, Justiciar and Mind Spy PrCs.
I can almost sweare, that I have seen a PrC named Investigator...but I can't remember where.....

[Smythen]

I would go with a divine caster build if I were you.

Im doing a Cleric (Cloistered variant unearthed arcana) - rogue.
Rogue1, cloistered cleric 4, shadowbane stalker 3, Divine trickster 10 (presige class from Rich Burlew, found under gaming)
With knowledge devotion. Its seems like what you are after exept that i use weapons (bow), primarily.

There is the sacred fist prestige class, that stacks cleric and monk, that will let you do almost the same. Though you will loose more caster lvls.

[oxinabox]

+1 Factotum.

Also have a look in cityscape, and city scape web enhancement.
IIRC the binder powers from cityscape are cool
...check up on them, and yes they are cool and relevent, bu thqey are high lvl.
However a binder might be a decent option.
They are incredibly flexible,
and get bonus feats.


The Urban Tracking Feat (/AFC for ranger) is a must

[hamishspence]

hmmm... check Bloodhound, Justiciar and Mind Spy PrCs.
I can almost sweare, that I have seen a PrC named Investigator...but I can't remember where.....

Song & Silence had a detective-based PRC.

[Tengu_temp]

If you have Tome of Battle, you could play an Unarmed Swordsage - better than a monk in fighting and skills, and uses the same principle of no armor/no weapons. Multiclass into Factotum or Rogue and you're golden.

[oxinabox]

You could go for a knowledge based build.

I suggest illuminum (the version that gets the bonus to INT Checks)
they are almost human. human works almost as well though

Arcivist (ToH), and take the feat knowledge devotion (C.Champion).

You can have an Massive amount of Knowledge, and then can directly turn that in to combat ablity.

You also have access to the whole and total devine spell list,
Including druid for those nice utility spells, and clerical domains for those obsure yet useful ones.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler in Player's Handbook 2 would be a good choice, and the Urban Ranger variant from Unearthed Arcana would be a strong alternative.

[InkEyes]

hmmm... check Bloodhound, Justiciar and Mind Spy PrCs.
I can almost sweare, that I have seen a PrC named Investigator...but I can't remember where.....

Do you maybe mean the Master Inquisitor? It's in the Eberron Campaign Setting. It always seems like an... interesting PrC. I like the idea of gaining contacts as you level, but you can only draw from NPC classes (and you never get very high level ones). Getting zone of truth, discern lies, and true seeing each 1/day isn't nearly enough. Also, you have to take that stupid investigative feat to get in too. Overall, I'd rather take all those levels in Bard or Beguiler and grab some magic items with all those spells.

As a matter of fact, the OP should definitely grab some wands of discern lies and zone of truth. Grab a ton of scrolls of true seeing too, or get it permanancied on you. That way you won't need to worry too much about putting skill points into Sense Motive.

[Overshee]

Factotums from Dungeonscape make really good detectives and pair nicely with the Able Learner feat. Since they have all skills as class skills you would save a feat by not needing Education. If you want to multiclass into monk from Factotum you'll want the feat Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor to avoid MAD.

Monks are okay at unarmed strikes but not the greatest. I would recommend the Unarmed Swordsage variant from Tome Of Battle instead of Monk. Also see if your DM will allow Carmendine Monk to work as Carmendine Swordsage since the Swordsage's AC bonus works very similar to the monk's.

Build ideas
Factotum with Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), Carmendine Monk, and a Monk's Belt - Lots more skill points and class features that work great for a detective, if you stay in the class all the way up you'll eventually have Int to AC twice at level 16

Unarmed Swordsage with Education - Many more options in combat than a monk, you could even take Knowledge Devotion for a nice boost as well if you plan on pumping up your Knowledge skills

Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior X - with the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona would make decent monk build, but not really much a detective build

What he said.

[AtwasAwamps]

Factotums are, as many here have said, a very strong class. However, there are some interesting other options.

Now, I’m going to assume that by detective work, you mean things like investigating a crime in the city and tracking down culprits, not doing research in a magical library, so I’m going to go from there.

If you’re dedicated to the monk, that’s fine, but it doesn’t necessarily have a “streetwise” feel to it. My suggestion would be to start out with a “thug” fighter, an alternate version of fighter that gets more skill points and an expanded skill list, as well as light armor proficiency. You lose a fighter bonus feat at level 1, but keep them for your other levels, allowing you to have plenty of feats and room for extras like Able Learner and so on and so forth. I would mix this with levels of ranger, especially urban ranger, allowing you to grab two-weapon fighting to be a real two-fisted brawler.

For unarmed damage, grab improved unarmed strike/superior unarmed strike for unarmed progression separate from monk levels. The flip side of that is using spiked gauntlets…you won’t get the same level of damage, but can enchant them. Plus, you get a nice brass-knuckle feel.

You can build from there into someone who uses grapples and holds or straight up body strikes, moving into PrCs that let you do what you want to do…some interesting (though not necessarily powerful) choices involve Justiciar, Vigilante, and some similar ideas.

Note that this is just purely the street detective flavor, while sticking with some fairly strong martial options. Frankly, most of the above options are more powerful.

[paddyfool]

Rogue is a strong option as well. Has all the skills you need, you don't need to carry a silly amount of weapons etc., and if you get yourself Improved Unarmed Strike and that feat that allows you to do non-lethal damage with your sneak attack die if you want, you can have one heck of a sucker-punch.

[Noodles2375]

I second the rogue.

If you play a rogue, human with not a terrible intelligence, you can focus on dexterity for combat related stuff and have a ludicrous number of skill points for detective work, perception, etc. You also get sneak attack which can give you serious dps.

Monk with rogue is a bit suboptimal, if you really really want to be unarmed and unarmored, the previous posters who mentioned unarmed swordsage are pointing you in the best direction.

[gorfnab]

Rogue is a strong option as well. Has all the skills you need, you don't need to carry a silly amount of weapons etc., and if you get yourself Improved Unarmed Strike and that feat that allows you to do non-lethal damage with your sneak attack die if you want, you can have one heck of a sucker-punch.

You do not need an extra feat to deal nonlethal damage with sneak attack. If the source of the initial damage (weapon, spell, or what not) deals nonlethal damage then the corresponding sneak attack damage is nonlethal as well.

IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL]
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage.

[paddyfool]

Thanks for that!

Heh, I'd quite like to play this character now myself.

[andr3w1sh]

Thanks everyone. I'm getting some really good info. I'm going to sit down with my GM and iron out a character build and I'll post afterwards. By all means keep the suggestions coming though.

[AtwasAwamps]

There was someone on these boards building a very specific detective build, too. Not like what you were going for, but there might be some suggestions there. Search for "detective" and I'm sure it will crop up.

[Ormagoden]

+2 factotum

Get knowledge devotion and Font of inspiration (from the web enhancement)

[Kylarra]

++ towards factotum as well, but I'll also throw out cloistered cleric headed into church inquisitor.

[andr3w1sh]

You could go for a knowledge based build.

I suggest illuminum (the version that gets the bonus to INT Checks)
they are almost human. human works almost as well though

Arcivist (ToH), and take the feat knowledge devotion (C.Champion).

You can have an Massive amount of Knowledge, and then can directly turn that in to combat ablity.

You also have access to the whole and total devine spell list,
Including druid for those nice utility spells, and clerical domains for those obsure yet useful ones.

What book is Illuminum from?

[Overshee]

What book is Illuminum from?

Races of Destiny IIRC

[Kosjsjach]

Just a nitpick: it's "Illumian", and yeah, they're found in Races of Destiny. The naen sigil does make for a good know-it-all character, and Illumians fit the flavor of Archivists wonderfully... but I don't know how detective-y you're going to feel with a ring of glowing symbols perpetually floating around your head. (There's a feat to negate that, but... y'know, feats.)

[chiasaur11]

Another for Factotum.

From all I've seen, it combines two fisted brawling with good Int and skills, with whatever else you might need.

Plus, the assumed default wears a fedora. You know what rules? Fedoras.

[Splendor]

Are you allowed to take flaws?

1st Level Factotum
Feat (Human): Able Learner (all skills are now always class skills)
*Edit: Yes now all skills are class skills no matter what class or prestige class you ever take.
Feat (1st Lv): Urban Tracking (helps find people in large cities)
2nd Level Factotum
3rd Level Monk
Feat (3rd Level): Monastic Training (Factotum)
Bonus Monk Feat: Improved Grapple

Alternatively: You can take as your 3rd level feat Wp Finesse (or Intuitive attack for a high WIS), and use your 1st level monk feat to choose Monastic Training (Factotum) if that better fits your characters stats.

Monastic Training: EB 57
Intuitive Attack: BoED Pg 44

If your DM is open-minded you may ask about home brewing a feat for a multiclass Factotum/Monk similar to the Ascetic Hunter feat (thus allowing you to increase your unarmed damage when you take levels in Factotum). And would remove the need for Monastic training.

[Overshee]

1st Level Factotum
Feat (Human): Able Learner (all skills are now always class skills)

Why are you taking able learner when all your skills are already class skills? Do you mean for later classes?

Also, get Carmeldine Monk (sp?) for using Int instead of Wis for monk AC bonus and sosuch.

[Splendor]

Kung Fu Genius (DR319 p71): Intelligence 13
Must be taken before or at the same time as gaining Monk level 1st
Use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for all Monk class abilities normally based on Wisdom.

However if he wants to take Intuitive Attack then I wouldn't take this.

[andr3w1sh]

GM also vetoed Carmendine Monk. I don't think I'm going the monk route anymore, Swordsage sounds like the better deal. So now I'm looking at Factotum/Swordsage. Any advice on PrCs that would boost that cross-class?

[Overshee]

Kung Fu Genius (DR319 p71): Intelligence 13
Must be taken before or at the same time as gaining Monk level 1st
Use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for all Monk class abilities normally based on Wisdom.

Whats the difference between that and http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...armendine_Monk ?

[Splendor]

Well the 2nd one require that you be a "member of Zealots of the Written Word monk order." Which if his DM doesn't have in his world he couldn't exactly take the feat.

Wait he disallows a simple monk feat but allows the swordsage class?