[3.5] Why is the archivist so powerfull?

[Dragero]

I don't have HoH, but i've heard the archivist from that book is extremly powerfull. Could anybody tell me why this is? Does it get 9th level spells early or somthing?

[Signmaker]

Extremely large pool of spells to learn from. I believe that sums it up.

So, if I'm not mistaken, you can do things like learn Haste as a first level spell (via Trapsmith), and similar other shenanigans.

[AslanCross]

By using scrolls or other forms of magical writing, he can learn any divine spell. While the spells he can get from leveling up are cleric-only, he can expand his prayer book with spells from the paladin, ranger, druid, and shugenja lists.

Dark knowledge is also a pretty interesting class feature.

[Gnorman]

It's a full caster.

[Optimystik]

Basically, they can learn every divine spell (and with sufficient shenanigans, any spell) in the game.

It's a full caster.

So is Warmage

[Starbuck_II]

I don't have HoH, but i've heard the archivist from that book is extremly powerfull. Could anybody tell me why this is? Does it get 9th level spells early or somthing?

No, it gets every Divine spell + Domain spells.

Now think: many domain spells are arcane spells 1 level earlier, but 1/day.
You can just add it to your known so no limit besides spell slot.

[Overshee]

I don't have HoH, but i've heard the archivist from that book is extremly powerfull. Could anybody tell me why this is? Does it get 9th level spells early or somthing?

He can pretty much cast any spell from any class's spell list just by reading a scroll with the spell on it. It's like a wizard, only with even more ridiculous because he's not limited to just the wizard's spell list AND cast them as a wizard, using a wizard's spell preparation mechanic.


EDIT: minor clarification

[Dragero]

Wow....ninja army attack!

Thanks guys, that does seem pretty strong!

[Gnorman]

It's also a full caster.

[mostlyharmful]

most of the choice arcane spells are available through domains, druid casting or whatever. An Archivist can pick up Scribe Scroll and make a divine scroll of whatever they want so long as they can track down a member of the appropriate class.

Then you've got stuff on partial casters lists that puts powerful spells at a lower level like trapsmith or Adept (Heal as a 4th level), etc...

Oh, and yeah... it's still a full caster...

[Da Beast]

The archivist is a divine caster who learns spells by copying them from scrolls into a spellbook like a wizard. They're broken because they can learn any divine spell, from any spell list, so long as they can find a scroll of it. With so many PrCs out there with their own spell lists, almost every spell is a divine spell for someone. The fact that a lot of classes that don't get all 9 levels of spells get some good ones at a lower spell level (for example, adepts get heal as a lvl 4 spell, iirc) just makes things worse. On top of all that, they get some other decent class abilities.

Edit: wow, lots of ninjas. Alright, I can add something original. If the party has an artificer, you don't even need to track down all those obscure scrolls. Finding a scroll of the trapsmith version of haste ought to be nearly impossible, but if the artificer can make one at level 1...

[JoshuaZ]

People make a big deal about the fact that the archivist gets access to every divine spell in the game. However, in practice, getting more than a few domains relies on a seriously helpful DM. Domain scrolls just aren't that common. Sure, you can go ask every cleric you know to consider scribing a scroll for you, but what fraction of clerics have that feat anyways? And yes, they can get Haste as a first level spell. However, that requires a Trapsmith with the Scribe Scroll feat. In practice, the Archivist is not substantially more broken than the cleric. Clearly a T1 class, but most of the real shennanigans are purely theoreotical.

[Overshee]

People make a big deal about the fact that the archivist gets access to every divine spell in the game. However, in practice, getting more than a few domains relies on a seriously helpful DM. Domain scrolls just aren't that common. Sure, you can go ask every cleric you know to consider scribing a scroll for you, but what fraction of clerics have that feat anyways? And yes, they can get Haste as a first level spell. However, that requires a Trapsmith with the Scribe Scroll feat. In practice, the Archivist is not substantially more broken than the cleric. Clearly a T1 class, but most of the real shennanigans are purely theoreotical.

It's still essentially everything a wizard is and more...

[Viletta Vadim]

As stated, the Archivist can learn any divine spells. That includes Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Adept, Divine Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, all domains from all sources, and multiple PrCs.

They can learn a lot of spells at a lower level than anyone else. For a simple example, Paladins get first-level spells at level 4. That includes Lesser Restoration, a spell Clerics get as a 2nd-level spell, available at level 3. Archivists can learn the Paladin version at level 1.

Also, through arcane-to-divine shenanigans, like Geomancer and Alternate Source Spell, any spell can be made into a divine scroll, allowing the Archivist to learn any spell. A Warlock generally helps with the scroll access.

So is Warmage

You haven't met the rainbow warsnake yet, have you?

[Gnorman]

It's also a... oh, never mind.

[Optimystik]

You haven't met the rainbow warsnake yet, have you?

Using Rainbow Servant to argue that Warmage is good is like using Soulbow to argue that Soulknife is good. A good PrC saves a bad base; it does not prove a good one.

[elonin]

Is this part of the OGL? From what I read here I'd imagine that a large number of dm's would ban the class. Is this a case where WOTC made a class and didn't predict the scourge they were unleashing? Or was there something else that was being aimed for but they didn't cover the loopholes? WOTC would do well if they were to vett their material by one team that understands the core concepts.

[Yuki Akuma]

Edit: wow, lots of ninjas. Alright, I can add something original. If the party has an artificer, you don't even need to track down all those obscure scrolls. Finding a scroll of the trapsmith version of haste ought to be nearly impossible, but if the artificer can make one at level 1...

Artificer scrolls are artificer scrolls. Not arcane scrolls. Not divine scrolls. No one can learn a spell from them, and anyone who tries to use one has to roll a Use Magic Device check.

[Asta Kask]

It's a full caster.

What is the significance of this?

[Yuki Akuma]

What is the significance of this?

All of the Big Five (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer and Archivist) are capable of casting ninth-level spells. They are the most powerful classes in the game.

Wizards have no other class features of note, and are still one of the Big Five. Spellcasting is that good.

[shadow_archmagi]

It's still essentially everything a wizard is and more...

And, like the wizard, the "And more" is purely at the DM's discretion. I mean, my own party has currently encountered.... zero wizards. They've found a handful of scrolls as random loot, but really not much. I just didn't have any good ideas for wizard-based encounters.

If the party included a wizard his spellbook would be about the size of the default two-spells-per-level right now.

[arguskos]

Random addition: to get a spell off any spell list, the Archivist and the other caster can collaborate on a scroll. If the Archivist has Scribe Scroll, and the other dude casts the spell, they can make a scroll with the spell on it. I would quote the relevant text, but I forget exactly where it is. Sstoopidtallkid would know though.

[Overshee]

And, like the wizard, the "And more" is purely at the DM's discretion. I mean, my own party has currently encountered.... zero wizards. They've found a handful of scrolls as random loot, but really not much. I just didn't have any good ideas for wizard-based encounters.

If the party included a wizard his spellbook would be about the size of the default two-spells-per-level right now.

EVERYTHING in DnD is purely at the DM's discretion, so while I acknowledge your argument, it's not like it's a gamebreaker. It's still one of the most powerful classes in the game and can do everything a wizard can do and more.

[Yuki Akuma]

EVERYTHING in DnD is purely at the DM's discretion, so while I acknowledge your argument, it's not like it's a gamebreaker. It's still one of the most powerful classes in the game and can do everything a wizard can do and more.

Can Archivists spontaneously cast miracle from seventh-level spell slots?

Serious question.

[deuxhero]

You can view archivist legally for free online, it's in an excerpt.

[Overshee]

Can Archivists spontaneously cast miracle from seventh-level spell slots?

Serious question.

If the DM houserules it, yeah they can...

[Gnorman]

If the DM houserules it, yeah they can...

The DM can houserule that a level 1 fighter can cast Meteor Swarm with a CL of 40 at will.

That doesn't make it legal.

Which is the real point of the question: is it legal?

[shadow_archmagi]

EVERYTHING in DnD is purely at the DM's discretion, so while I acknowledge your argument, it's not like it's a gamebreaker. It's still one of the most powerful classes in the game and can do everything a wizard can do and more.

Oh, I realize that everything in D&D is at the DM's discretion, but there's a difference between

"This only works with the DM's permission because it is a bit fuzzy on the rules"
and
"This should work fine, assuming the DM doesn't houserule that all barbarians have laser eye beams"
and
"In a stereotypical campaign, you probably won't get much chance to shine here"

I'm referring to the last. I mean, if you took levels in Illithid Slayer, then the statement "This is actually not that great if your DM doesn't use many Illithids" is completely relevant and valid. (Actually it occurs to me that a lot of people take Illithid Slayer for something else; it might grant mind immunity or something?)

[Overshee]

The DM can houserule that a level 1 fighter can cast Meteor Swarm with a CL of 40 at will.

That doesn't make it legal.

Which is the real point of the question: is it legal?

*shrug* a lot of GMs, including mine, don't have a firm grip on the rules. For example, I've heard a ton of stories about DMs ruling Artificer scrolls as arcane which lets them exchange with Archivists.

[jiriku]

Random addition: to get a spell off any spell list, the Archivist and the other caster can collaborate on a scroll. If the Archivist has Scribe Scroll, and the other dude casts the spell, they can make a scroll with the spell on it. I would quote the relevant text, but I forget exactly where it is. Sstoopidtallkid would know though.

While I am neither stoopid, nor tall, nor a kid, I can oblige. Personally, I think the interpretation is open to debate, but here are the relevant sections of the SRD.

From the SRD:

Creating Scrolls
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

Also from the SRD:

Creating Magic Items
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).