GAH! Last Minute Archer Cleric (3.5)

[AtwasAwamps]

Apparently I’m joining a game tomorrow. I need to make a ranged character, level 3. Just wanted to check and see if I missed anything with this theoretical idea.

Elf Cloistered Cleric 2/Fighter 1
Domains: Plant, Elf, Knowledge->Knowledge Devotion
Domain Granted Feats: Elf – Point Blank Shot
Level 1 Feat: Precise Shot
Level 3 Feat: Rapid Shot
Fighter Feat: Zen Archery

If I’m not missing anything, this should give me heavy armor and decent chance to hit/damage using a longbow, with "okay" cleric casting (it's only level 3!). My levels after this will be mostly in cleric, most likely grabbing Holy Warrior at some point. I may avoid Divine Metamagic just for balance's sake. Textbook stuff.

I was thinking of taking Domain Spontaneity in one of my two domains…Elf would grant me a lot of Truestrike use, but it looks to me like plant is a much stronger domain. Thoughts?

Also, does anyone know what book Solonor Thelandira (the elven god) is in? I'd like to fluff my character as a cleric of the hunter-god of elves...

[deuxhero]

Go Prestige Paladin dip for the armor/weapons/BAB with casting and turning intact instead of fighter.

[ghashxx]

While I'm vaguely familiar with making archers, I'm not too good with clerics. But if you're planning on going primarily cleric then you look to be in good order here. Though I would normally suggest picking up the plant domain, it depends on the campaign really. If the DM likes to use a singular super hard to hit enemy rather then swarms then truestrike is nice

[Ormagoden]

Missing?

Maybe raptor arrows? can you afford those yet?

Otherwise you have all the angles covered. Now start saving for that force bow

[Optimystik]

Go Prestige Paladin dip for the armor/weapons/BAB with casting and turning intact instead of fighter.

This. Or should I say, this.

You have to be LG though (or CG, LE, CE if your DM allows the variant paladins.)

[Charlie Kemek]

To answer your question, the issue with your build is that it doesn't get full base attack like normal cleric or one with persisted divine power would.

another option for a ranged character would be the psychic warrior. if there's LA buy-off, you can be half-giant or goliath for strength. something like below. just use expansion and do tons of damage. the advantage to this is that it won't be over powered, and at lower levels, a much better archer.

PW 1-PB shot, precise shot
PW 2-Rapid shot
PW 3-zen archery (if human, try to take item familiar at level 3 to make your bow really good)

The advantage to this is that you aren't overpowered as the cleric can be, and if you take the vigor power you can do some preventive healing.

[ken-do-nim]

Apparently I’m joining a game tomorrow. I need to make a ranged character, level 3. Just wanted to check and see if I missed anything with this theoretical idea.

Elf Cloistered Cleric 2/Fighter 1
Domains: Plant, Elf, Knowledge->Knowledge Devotion
Domain Granted Feats: Elf – Point Blank Shot
Level 1 Feat: Precise Shot
Level 3 Feat: Rapid Shot
Fighter Feat: Zen Archery

If I’m not missing anything, this should give me heavy armor and decent chance to hit/damage using a longbow, with "okay" cleric casting (it's only level 3!). My levels after this will be mostly in cleric, most likely grabbing Holy Warrior at some point. I may avoid Divine Metamagic just for balance's sake. Textbook stuff.

I was thinking of taking Domain Spontaneity in one of my two domains…Elf would grant me a lot of Truestrike use, but it looks to me like plant is a much stronger domain. Thoughts?

Also, does anyone know what book Solonor Thelandira (the elven god) is in? I'd like to fluff my character as a cleric of the hunter-god of elves...

I would prefer cleric 3 and drop Rapid Shot but that's just me.

Edit: you probably need the 1 level of fighter to get the martial proficiency in bow, huh? Nevermind then.

[Charlie Kemek]

I would prefer cleric 3 and drop Rapid Shot but that's just me.

Edit: you probably need the 1 level of fighter to get the martial proficiency in bow, huh? Nevermind then.

no, the elf level gets him that. he loses bab if he takes a cleric level.

[Tahlathali]

He's playing an elf so he is already proficient in long/short bows.

Ninja'd

[Felyndiira]

Go Prestige Paladin dip for the armor/weapons/BAB with casting and turning intact instead of fighter.

Prestige paladin is impossible with Elven God/Goddess fluff, since most elven gods tend to be chaotic good, making a cleric unqualified for the LG requirement. Fluff-wise, the standard cleric prestige classes (Oracle, Contemplative, Inquisitor) also fit quite poorly into the elven ranger-cleric build and require a bit of engineering to fit into the character. If you're planning on getting a prestiege class later on, look into seeker of the misty isle - you're an elf, and travel domain is AWESOME.

If you're not going DMM Persist, I would not recommend cloistered cleric. Since you'll be using bows as a primary weapon, the lower BAB necessitates casting divine power before every battle (remember that "no sacrifice" cloistered cleric assumes you'll be divine powered for all battles), which effectively wastes one of your actions and isn't always feasible. Instead, choose normal cleric; take the middle BAB over the extra domain+bardic lore and make yourself more combat-oriented. That, or make sure to cast divinations often so you'll always be prepared with divine power.

Elf is somewhat of a waste for a spontaneous domain. True strike is useful, sure, but you're also wasting an action for every shot (unless if you're using quicken, in which case you're wasting a fifth-level slot instead). Thusly, it's useful only when you need to absolutely make sure you hit; in normal circumstances, two volleys of arrows > +20 to one attack.

Otherwise, you pretty much have archer cleric covered. Solonor (FR) is kinda a bad patron god as his domains are utter crap (War is his best domain, which is not saying much). Corellon's Magic domain, Hanali's Charm, and Sehanine Moonbow's illusion/travel are all superior domains to what solonor offers (and better than elf as spontaneous domains). Alternatively, choose divine magician and load yourself with custom spells from the wizard list.

[Optimystik]

Prestige paladin is impossible with Elven God/Goddess fluff, since most elven gods tend to be chaotic good, making a cleric unqualified for the LG requirement.

Not true - There are members of the Seldarine with paladin orders, most notably Corellon himself, and they waive the "one-step rule."

And as I posted earlier, there is always Paladin of Freedom (CG) from the same book as Prestige Paladin.

[Felyndiira]

Not true - There are members of the Seldarine with paladin orders, most notably Corellon himself, and they waive the "one-step rule."

And as I posted earlier, there is always Paladin of Freedom (CG) from the same book as Prestige Paladin.

IIRC, though, those paladin orders consist of members that are straight paladins, not cleric/paladins or cleric/prestiege paladins. A paladin does not have the "one step away from deity" restriction while the cleric does, so a paladin of Corellon would be okay; a paladin-cleric would not.

Paladin variations are also subject to DM approval, and there are quite a few that get weary of allowing variants just for dipping optimization; I know of a few DMs that ban multiple prestiege-class clerics for the sake of balance before, though I guess it might be different in this case.

[Optimystik]

IIRC, though, those paladin orders consist of members that are straight paladins, not cleric/paladins or cleric/prestiege paladins. A paladin does not have the "one step away from deity" restriction while the cleric does, so a paladin of Corellon would be okay; a paladin-cleric would not.

Do you have a source for that? Even FR is very light about multiclassing clerics, and Corellon's Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower has both clerics and paladins.

Besides, do you see a Chaotic god being that much of a stickler for the rules?

Paladin variations are also subject to DM approval, and there are quite a few that get weary of allowing variants just for dipping optimization; I know of a few DMs that ban multiple prestiege-class clerics for the sake of balance before, though I guess it might be different in this case.

Our job in this thread is to let him know the options he should be asking for. He has nothing to lose by mentioning them to his DM.

[AtwasAwamps]

The DM for this game is someone who believe all clerics are healbots. I intend to show them the difference.

I have briefly redesigned the character. I will most likely be picking up DMM persist/divine power at some point. Sticking with cloistered cleric for that reason. Dumping rapid shot. I'll pick it up at some point later.

[Felyndiira]

Do you have a source for that? Even FR is very light about multiclassing clerics, and Corellon's Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower has both clerics and paladins.

Besides, do you see a Chaotic god being that much of a stickler for the rules?

No sources, really; just trying to explain a phenomenon using SRD rules, since it would be implied that if RAW can explain something in a sourcebook, that explanation is more likely than assuming it an exception. Besides, you can have both clerics and paladins, but have them not multi-class into each other so that the clerics remain representatives of Corellon (as they're supposed to be) while the paladins serve as his warriors.

I admit fault to rejecting CG Prestiege Paladins, though; I guess my dislike for multi-prestige dips is starting to rear its ugly head in my posts =<.

EDIT:

The DM for this game is someone who believe all clerics are healbots. I intend to show them the difference.

I have briefly redesigned the character. I will most likely be picking up DMM persist/divine power at some point. Sticking with cloistered cleric for that reason. Dumping rapid shot. I'll pick it up at some point later.

One of those DMs, heh. Before you decide on DMM persist, though, make sure to bring it up with your DM beforehand. There are many DMs who would outright ban the feat because they believe it to be overpowered, and you don't want the bombshell dropped on you in the middle of acquiring the massive feats you need for the combo.

Otherwise, DMM Persist is feat-intensive. It requires all of Extend Spell (iirc no elven gods have the Planning domain), Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic Persist, and Extra Turning so that you can use a nightstick. Since no sane DM would allow stacking nightsticks, you usually want at least 14 turn attempts so that you can cast divine power + righteous might with persist.

If you're using DMM Persist, stack lots of caster levels. DMs tend to love throwing dispel magic around when you use persist, so you'll want a measure to protect your precious buffs. As a cloistered cleric, you'll also have relatively low BAB before you get Persist Divine Power, so keep that in mind.

[Optimystik]

No sources, really; just trying to explain a phenomenon using SRD rules, since it would be implied that if RAW can explain something in a sourcebook, that explanation is more likely than assuming it an exception. Besides, you can have both clerics and paladins, but have them not multi-class into each other so that the clerics remain representatives of Corellon (as they're supposed to be) while the paladins serve as his warriors.

I admit fault to rejecting CG Prestiege Paladins, though; I guess my dislike for multi-prestige dips is starting to rear its ugly head in my posts =<.

I understand your position, though I will point out that both Prestige Paladins and CG Paladins are on the SRD as well.

It's true they are variants, but in this instance I'd rather use the variant, and keep the rules consistent (i.e. Corellon only recruits CG Paladins, thus upholding the "one-step rule") than grant his followers that very odd exception.

(Just so you don't think it's solely an elf thing - Sune is another CG with a Paladin order. Maybe it's a perk for being a Greater Deity? )

EDIT: Another explanation - Racial gods/goddesses violate the one-step rule frequently. For example, Yurtrus (Orc deity) is NE, but can have LN and CN clerics.

[ken-do-nim]

no, the elf level gets him that. he loses bab if he takes a cleric level.

He does?

Level 2 cleric grants BAB +1
Level 3 cleric grants BAB +2

So a 2 cleric/1 fighter has a BAB of +2 and a 3 cleric has a BAB of +2; it's the same. The fighter level is only giving him 1 feat, and I'd rather have the 2nd level spells.

[Devils_Advocate]

I understand your position, though I will point out that both Prestige Paladins and CG Paladins are on the SRD as well.

It's true they are variants, but in this instance I'd rather use the variant, and keep the rules consistent (i.e. Corellon only recruits CG Paladins, thus upholding the "one-step rule") than grant his followers that very odd exception.

(Just so you don't think it's solely an elf thing - Sune is another CG with a Paladin order. Maybe it's a perk for being a Greater Deity? )

EDIT: Another explanation - Racial gods/goddesses violate the one-step rule frequently. For example, Yurtrus (Orc deity) is NE, but can have LN and CN clerics.

That's nothin'. Malar, in Faiths and Pantheons, is Chaotic Evil and has 10 Druid levels. And he's only a lesser deity.

"Foolish mortals! The gods care not for your precious alignment restrictions!"

He does?

Level 2 cleric grants BAB +1
Level 3 cleric grants BAB +2

So a 2 cleric/1 fighter has a BAB of +2 and a 3 cleric has a BAB of +2; it's the same. The fighter level is only giving him 1 feat, and I'd rather have the 2nd level spells.

The Cloistered Cleric variant only has 1/2 BAB.

[Eldariel]

Rapid Shot is more important than Precise Shot. I suggest you switch 'em around if you have any decent Wis.

[Draz74]

Rapid Shot is more important than Precise Shot. I suggest you switch 'em around if you have any decent Wis.

I would agree with this, especially since you can just buy a Precise enhancement to your bow (MIC). Except when you factor in Splitting. That makes Precise Shot kind of a must-have feat again, if you want Splitting.

[Eldariel]

I would agree with this, especially since you can just buy a Precise enhancement to your bow (MIC). Except when you factor in Splitting. That makes Precise Shot kind of a must-have feat again, if you want Splitting.

But not on level 3. You can use Precise-ability to qualify for Splitting and if you don't, you can still pick up Precise a bit later when you can afford it.


@OP: Btw, your deity? 'cause chances are you'll want some other domain than Plant given it has pretty much nothing for archery. Unless your DM "Ok"s using auxillary sources of turning for DMM.

[Draz74]

But not on level 3. You can use Precise-ability to qualify for Splitting and if you don't, you can still pick up Precise a bit later when you can afford it.

Whoops, I had forgotten this was at Level 3.

[AtwasAwamps]

Rapid Shot is more important than Precise Shot. I suggest you switch 'em around if you have any decent Wis.

We play with a house-rule that I intensely dislike that missing a target that's in melee with another target gives you a chance to hit anyone that target is adjacent to.

We don't use that rule when I run my games. It's idiotic. Archery is already bad enough.

@OP: Btw, your deity? 'cause chances are you'll want some other domain than Plant given it has pretty much nothing for archery. Unless your DM "Ok"s using auxillary sources of turning for DMM.

Is there anyone who gives the elf domain that also gives something useful for archery? I'm trudging through the spell compendium and online sources right now (snowed in from the office, so I have my books!)

EDIT: Probably going to use someone's earlier suggestion and go with Elf and Travel

[Harperfan7]

Elf Ranger 1 - ?
Cleric of Solonor Thelandira (Elf, War) 1 - PBS, Longbow Focus
Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot, Precise Shot

[Optimystik]

Is there anyone who gives the elf domain that also gives something useful for archery? I'm trudging through the spell compendium and online sources right now (snowed in from the office, so I have my books!)

EDIT: Probably going to use someone's earlier suggestion and go with Elf and Travel

Travel is a great domain, as is Trickery.

What setting are you in? Greyhawk elf deities are different from FR ones, with the exceptions of well-known ones like Corellon Larethian, Sehanine Moonbow and Deep Sashelas.

[AtwasAwamps]

Elf Ranger 1 - ?
Cleric of Solonor Thelandira (Elf, War) 1 - PBS, Longbow Focus
Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot, Precise Shot

...I didn't even think of this. This would make sense. Rangers get Knowledge: Nature and Knowledge: Dungeoneering, as well as 6 skill points per level. That, combined with knowledge devotion and taking local, would give me all knowledge fields for Knowledge Devotion as class skills. I could start out with the cleric level, gaining max ranks possible in Arcana, Religions, Plains, and Local, grab a few other handy skills, and cross class some points into nature/dungeoneering. Then I could pick up the ranger level and use those points to max out/near max out dungeoneering/nature. After that, it's a matter of just keeping things up.

It also works out with my traveling scholar/historian set up, AND means I don't have to be an elf and can go with half-elf, so as not to lose Constitution (thank god) since ranger will grant me proficiency with the bow. I can go with Sehanine Moonshine, taking Elf and Travel, and bam! I'm all set.

I lose caster levels, but considering the power level of this group, I'll still be more than comparative. Thanks, folks!

[Thespianus]

I'm sorry for jumping in late, but.. What is the Awesomeness with the Travel Domain?

Is it to swap out the domain granted power for Travel Devotion? Or is it because of Fly and the teleportation spells that the domain grants?

*eager to learn*

Travel Devotion seems rather expensive (at 2 turning attempts / use ), and Fly tends to be found in MIC items. :)

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm sorry for jumping in late, but.. What is the Awesomeness with the Travel Domain?

Is it to swap out the domain granted power for Travel Devotion? Or is it because of Fly and the teleportation spells that the domain grants?

*eager to learn*

Travel Devotion seems rather expensive (at 2 turning attempts / use ), and Fly tends to be found in MIC items. :)

It is both I believe, the granted power nice FoM virtually free and travel devotion can help people who lack pounce and need TWF swift hunters for example

[Douglas]

Travel Devotion seems rather expensive (at 2 turning attempts / use ), and Fly tends to be found in MIC items. :)

Each use lasts a full minute, though. Spend 2 turn attempts, and for the next 10 rounds you can move as a swift action. That's usually plenty for an entire combat. And the first use per day is free. That's really actually quite cheap.

[Thespianus]

Each use lasts a full minute, though.

I missed that part. I thought it was for one round only. I now see the Awesomeness clearly. :)

Thanks.