(3.5) On 3.0 Content in 3.5 Games

[Gralamin]

I know the general rule is that 3.0 content that isn't replaced with a newer version in 3.5 is generally still usable. My question is, would this carry over to the old Psionics handbook? Could a 3.5 Psion get, for example, Thrall? Astral Steed? Amplified Invisibility? Is it possible to get Talents?

If you can, there are quite a few powers that look like they might be useful, though 3.0 Psionics did not have augmentation. This seems to be a weird spot in the rules, since the terminology remains the same, with the system redesigned to work quite differently.

[FishAreWet]

No. Psionics was all updated, making 3.0 unusable.

[Flickerdart]

They can't get Talents, because there are no more 0th power slots. I suppose Psions could learn Talents instead of 1st level powers, but that's dumb.
As for the other ones, I don't see why not. As long as they work by current Psionics rules and haven't been superseded by newer powers, fire away.
Edit: Anyone got a direct quote of the "you can use unupdated 3.0 stuff" rule? I think it'd be PHB or DMG...

[Gralamin]

No. Psionics was all updated, making 3.0 unusable.

"All updated" is clearly false. Many powers don't appear in both books. Unless you mean to say, by analogy, that All 3.0 spells don't work in 3.5 since 3.5 casters were updated (Something clearly contradicted). Psionics as a whole was revised, but not every piece of content was updated.

[Splendor]

I think with psionics update each power would have to be taken separately.

Thrall: Was kinda moved into the prestige class Thrallherd. However I think the actual spell would just be a specific use of Reality Revision.
Astral Steed: I believe as a DM I would allow, but I would make it a Shaper Discipline power.
Amplified Invisibility: Since there isn't a psionic invisibility anymore and only the crappy Cloud Mind, I wouldn't allow it.

[Vaynor]

"All updated" is clearly false. Many powers don't appear in both books. Unless you mean to say, by analogy, that All 3.0 spells don't work in 3.5 since 3.5 casters were updated (Something clearly contradicted). Psionics as a whole was revised, but not every piece of content was updated.

Many powers don't appear in both books because they were removed during the update. The new psionics book, the upgraded version, fully and completely replaces the old one. You cannot take snippets appearing in the 3.0 book and use them because they are not available in the update, they would not have been removed if they were still supposed to be usable. Your logic is highly flawed.

[Dimers]

I believe there's a passage in the front of the XPH saying you can't have it both ways. Sorry, AFB right now. I know for certain that that's how my last DM considered it -- I could have XPH+CPsi, or I could have 3.0 psionics, my choice. XPH presents a system that's smoother and more versatile, as well as just having more material, so if you're in the same situation I was I'd recommend going with 3.5 and trying to homebrew individual 3.0 powers into the newer system. (Me, I really miss the inkling power ...)

[faceroll]

I believe there's a passage in the front of the XPH saying you can't have it both ways. Sorry, AFB right now. I know for certain that that's how my last DM considered it -- I could have XPH+CPsi, or I could have 3.0 psionics, my choice. XPH presents a system that's smoother and more versatile, as well as just having more material, so if you're in the same situation I was I'd recommend going with 3.5 and trying to homebrew individual 3.0 powers into the newer system. (Me, I really miss the inkling power ...)

It's not in the intro.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The entire psionic system was completely changed from 3.0 to 3.5, and many 3.0 powers were replaced by a 3.5 version of a completely different name. Other 3.0 powers were just psionic versions of core spells (Astral Steed) which were most likely intentionally removed. Psionic powers are capable of many things which spells cannot do, therefore Psionics should not be capable of all the same things that spellcasters can do. The Expanded Psionics Handbook not only changed the rules of how psionic powers work, it redefined what they could and could not do.

There were many systems which were changed in 3.5, for example monsters got feats and skills much differently than they do now, so allowing a character to use a 3.0 Fey as their race and permit them to gain (1+Int bonus) feats at 1st level and then one every three class levels would be akin to allowing 3.0 powers which do not appear in 3.5. The psionic system was replaced, and everything associated with that system was likewise replaced, including the power list. Spellcasting did not go through a comparable change, so gaining a specific 3.0 spell is not a valid example of why a specific 3.0 power should be allowed. Permitting 3.0 psionic powers to be used in 3.5 would be most similar to allowing a 2e spell in 3.X, or allowing a 3.X spell in 4e, it simply would not work. The old system was replaced with a new one, and certain parts of that old system were intentionally left out of the new one, among those were specific powers.

[Aharon]

It's the same as for all other books. What wasn't updated can still be used.
The system was changed, as Biffoniacus says, but only the classes, some of the powers, and feats. That's about as extensive as the change as for normal spellcasters (a great number of durations was changed, class features were changed (i.e. Toad familiar no longer gives +2 to Con), etc.)).

One of the selling points of 3.5 was that all your 3.0 material is still usable, except the updated things. So the intent of the designers was that you should be able to use these things.

Your DM may have other thoughts on the matter, though.

[SilverStar]

I'd let you attempt to convert desired powers into the 3.5 system.

The Spell Compendium gives arcane and divine spellcasters great versatility, and I don't limit anything from it except the obviously cheesy.

Psionics has only what's in the XPH and the mass o'crap that is the CompPsi. By all means try and expand thy knowledge.

On talents: In my higher-level games, I allow casters to use nondamaging cantrips pretty much at will. I would likely allow a psion to use similar powers, providing they weren't upgraded and that you didn't augment them.

[Optimystik]

The main thing I would want converted are PrCs, because the 3.5 psionic PrCs (aside from the Mind's Eye ones) blow. Arch Psion is amazing for instance, and Grim Psion would be great for an Ardent seeking immortality.

[SilverStar]

100% agreed.

Converting them is no more difficult than converting any other 3.0 class.

I cry for the lack of decent psionic prestiges.

[Optimystik]

There are nice ones in Hyperconscious, as well as some great powers, feats and variant rules (like the Mindscape Battle for when psions cross paths with each other - very flavorful!), but it's 3rd party.

(Not to bash CPsi, but there are times I wish Hyperconscious was CPsi, and the various good bits of CPsi were a web enhancement )

[AstralFire]

It's the same as for all other books. What wasn't updated can still be used.
The system was changed, as Biffoniacus says, but only the classes, some of the powers, and feats. That's about as extensive as the change as for normal spellcasters (a great number of durations was changed, class features were changed (i.e. Toad familiar no longer gives +2 to Con), etc.)).

One of the selling points of 3.5 was that all your 3.0 material is still usable, except the updated things. So the intent of the designers was that you should be able to use these things.

Your DM may have other thoughts on the matter, though.

If you expressed 3.0->3.5 as a series of patch notes, spellcasting would look like:

• Significantly lowered duration of Bull's Strength and related spells.
• Significantly lowered duration of Fly.
• Magic armor has been retooled to provide all of its armor bonus from one source.
• The disgruntled badger population will be driven to extinction; reincarnation has been adjusted to a more player-usable form.

etc.

Psionics would be:

• Due to significant changes, forget everything you knew.

You'd be better off attempting to update the spirit of certain powers (like Whitefire) than to actually import them.

[magic9mushroom]

The problem with 3.0 -> 3.5 is that there's stuff which the designers didn't intend to be in 3.5, like the whole series of crit-range extenders.

I'd say that stuff which is from a book which was redone should be just as obsolete as stuff which is itself redone, and stuff which obviously relies on rules that were changed *glares at Disciple of Dispater* should also be disallowed.

[SilverStar]

I have yet to be able to find any of these wonderful 3rd party books.



Generally speaking, though, when I get the chance to play a psion (not often; I spend a lot of time convincing people psionics isn't broken) I follow my #1 rule:

"If it doesn't currently exist, make stuff up."

[ericgrau]

As the main psionic book was updated, it should seem clear that you can't use anything from the 3.0 book. What you could use is material from other 3.0 books that have not been updated, as long as the individual items haven't been updated elsewhere either. Though IMO you should still consider how it affects 3.5 and adjust if necessary. Using material from the old psionics book would be like using rules from the 3.0 Player's Handbook in 3.5. No, there's a reason they didn't simply copy-paste it into the 3.5 version. Believe me, that's the easiest way to make a product there is and if they intended for it to be used they would without a second thought.

If you really like the fluff from 3.0 psionics, IMO it's your game so house rule whatever you want. IMO just examine it closely for anything that doesn't fit the rules or style of 3.5 psionics and start culling or replacing whatever you need to. If you now have a playable PrC, great. If nothing's left then, well, now you know why they didn't update it.

[Anonymouswizard]

I have yet to be able to find any of these wonderful 3rd party books.



Generally speaking, though, when I get the chance to play a psion (not often; I spend a lot of time convincing people psionics isn't broken) I follow my #1 rule:

"If it doesn't currently exist, make stuff up."

My brother thought the 3.0 psychic warrior was over powered.

but not the 3.5 one.

[SilverStar]

Psychic Warrior wouldn't be overpowered even if they had fighter BAB.

Then again, I'm well aware that casters > swordslingers.

[Optimystik]

I have yet to be able to find any of these wonderful 3rd party books.

Hyperconscious is a steal at $11.

I'm sure if you look around, you can *cough* find it elsewhere.

"If it doesn't currently exist, make stuff up."

This is explicitly allowed, and powers that didn't make the jump from 3.0 to 3.5 are a very good place to start.

The best part is if you're an Erudite - Use all your naturally learned powers as you level to research custom ones, copy them into power stones, then Psychic Reform your powers known away to repeat the process. When you're done researching, relearn every power you "forgot" - and now you have every 3.0, 3.5 and third-party power in your head.

Psychic Warrior wouldn't be overpowered even if they had fighter BAB.

Then again, I'm well aware that casters > swordslingers.

That would definitely put it ahead of every other Martial class in the game though, possibly including ToB classes. Psywar is that damn good.

[SilverStar]

As ToB is banned in any game that I don't run () that would be a nonissue.

And I am certain my Gather Information ranks are sufficient to do as you have suggested.

Erudites are, uh, crazy. I love 'em, but yeah... No worse than Incantatrix.

Worst thing is, I'm allowed to play THOSE.

Back on topic, I am aware that creating custom powers is allowed, but the downtime required is literally ridiculous....

[faceroll]

The problem with 3.0 -> 3.5 is that there's stuff which the designers didn't intend to be in 3.5, like the whole series of crit-range extenders.

I'd say that stuff which is from a book which was redone should be just as obsolete as stuff which is itself redone, and stuff which obviously relies on rules that were changed *glares at Disciple of Dispater* should also be disallowed.

There's not much issue with crit expansion, though. The only thing that really comes to mind are aptitude weapons & the lightning maces feat, but the problem there is ToB, not crits.

[Sinfire Titan]

There's not much issue with crit expansion, though. The only thing that really comes to mind are aptitude weapons & the lightning maces feat, but the problem there is ToB, not crits.

No, the problem there is Lightning Mace working on a Threat, not a Confirmed critical. Aptitude gave Fighters a reason to take Weapon Focus with the Longbow and still carry around a melee weapon.

[SilverStar]

Allowing critical enhancements to stack just means melee guys aren't just meat shields for the casters.

Also, aptitude is one of the better things in D&D.

[faceroll]

No, the problem there is Lightning Mace working on a Threat, not a Confirmed critical.

Which is pretty cool.

Aptitude gave Fighters a reason to take Weapon Focus with the Longbow and still carry around a melee weapon.

The problems are fighter class & feat design, and the existence of an ability that allows one thing to count as another. In a system where powerful things are balanced by exclusivity, one should think very carefully before removing exclusivity.

[Sinfire Titan]

In a system where powerful things are balanced by exclusivity, one should think very carefully before removing exclusivity.

3X was built on something being able to replace something else, it's just that some abilities were not given that treatment. Those abilities happen to be very poor ones, FYI.

Seriously, a Caster can replace almost every ability score they have (save for the Mental stats) at their leisure, replace skills with spells, replace attack rolls with saving throws, etc. The Fighter and other classes didn't get that same treatment.

And powerful things are not balanced in this system. The Devs thought they were, but players proved them wrong. Hell, even things that actually are balanced are sometimes called overpowered.

[faceroll]

3X was built on something being able to replace something else, it's just that some abilities were not given that treatment. Those abilities happen to be very poor ones, FYI.

Seriously, a Caster can replace almost every ability score they have (save for the Mental stats) at their leisure, replace skills with spells, replace attack rolls with saving throws, etc. The Fighter and other classes didn't get that same treatment.

And powerful things are not balanced in this system. The Devs thought they were, but players proved them wrong. Hell, even things that actually are balanced are sometimes called overpowered.

I think that's the great irony of 3e.

[Sliver]

It's the same as for all other books. What wasn't updated can still be used.

I know it is generally accepted, but is there an official ruling about that?

[Sinfire Titan]

I know it is generally accepted, but is there an official ruling about that?

I think it's Page 4 of your DMG. Page number may be off, but it's in the DMG.