Would giving Lizardfolk Powerful Build make them too good a race?

[Brendan]

I was thinking how subpar the race is, as it is able to hold it's breath fairly long and is pretty strong. Thats it. so I was wondering if they would be more viable and essentially, playable, if they had that ability. Seeing how other races gain spell like abilities and powers, one effect could make them worthwhile. However, it is a strong ability, and thus might be too much.
Thoughts?

[Starbuck_II]

I was thinking how subpar the race is, as it is able to hold it's breath fairly long and is pretty strong. Thats it. so I was wondering if they would be more viable and essentially, playable, if they had that ability. Seeing how other races gain spell like abilities and powers, one effect could make them worthwhile. However, it is a strong ability, and thus might be too much.
Thoughts?

Every race with PB has LA, but hard to say as LF have RHD.

[Runestar]

Use the dragonblood variant in dragon magic, remove the NA and racial HD, and make them LA+0. With that feat which gives them a tail attack...

[Glimbur]

I don't generally see breath holding as being important very often. Maybe in a nautical game, or one with lots of swamps, or many poison gases. Powerful build is nice, but my gut says the two humanoid hitdice are punishment enough and no LA would be needed.

On a completely self-promoting note, I recently made a PrC for lizardfolk.

[Splendor]

Instead of giving it powerful build you could give it elite stats, give them max HP for the 1st HD and keep the same CR.

S: 17, D: 14, C: 15, I: 8, W: 12, CH: 8
Attack: 2 claws at +4 d4+3
AC: 19 (+5 NA, +2 Dex, +2 Large shield)
Hp: 16

Much more dangerous and still only a CR 1.

Add a level of warrior for +.5 CR and you get. (now CR 1.5)
S: 17, D: 14, C: 15, I: 8, W: 12, CH: 8
Attack: 2 claws at +5 d4+3
AC: 19 (+5 NA, +2 Dex, +2 Large shield)
Hp: 22
additional feat: Weapon Focus Claw

2 levels in warrior (now a CR 2 monster)
S: 18, D: 14, C: 15, I: 8, W: 12, CH: 8
Attack: 2 claws at +7 d4+4
AC: 19 (+5 NA, +2 Dex, +2 Large shield)
Hp: 28
additional feat: Weapon Focus Claw

[arguskos]

*misses the point*

While good advice, that doesn't help with Lizardfolk as a PC race.

On topic, yeah, I really don't think that Powerful Build is gonna hurt anything if you added it to the default Lizardfolk and didn't change anything else.

[Thurbane]

Lizardmen (oldschool!) have 2 cruddy humanoid RHD, and a LA +1.

I don't see how powerful build would make them remotely overpowered.

I would also advocate making them monstrous humanoids, so their RHD wouldn't be so lame...

[Draz74]

I would also advocate making them monstrous humanoids, so their RHD wouldn't be so lame...

Who you callin' monstrous?

J/k. I agree that Powerful Build would not make them overpowered.

[faceroll]

Lizardmen (oldschool!) have 2 cruddy humanoid RHD, and a LA +1.

I don't see how powerful build would make them remotely overpowered.

I would also advocate making them monstrous humanoids, so their RHD wouldn't be so lame...

A type change would make them ineligible for Enlarge Person, though.

[kpenguin]

Recommend just taking off the LA. It wouldn't make Lizardfolk all that unbalanced with those nasty racial hit dice.

[Thurbane]

A type change would make them ineligible for Enlarge Person, though.

...and immune to Hold Person and Charm Person...

[Shademan]

cant you just remove their RHD?
make a completely normal LA+0 race?
(powerful build would be awesome tho'. that lets em use oversized weapons, right?)

[AstralFire]

Remove the RHD but keep LA+1, add Powerful Build, drop Natural Armor bonus to +2 would probably work out just fine.

[Runestar]

And lizardfolk aren't supposed to use weapons. At least not when their draw is having all those natural weapons to sneak attack with...

[Devils_Advocate]

The problem with balancing some monsters is that they make up for a lack of gear with natural racial features. Lizardfolk get a big, juicy +5 bonus to their armor class that stacks with everything. For the lizardman in the Monster Manual, that's no big deal, since he doesn't have actual armor. But if you equip a lizardman with all of the gear appropriate to an NPC of his class, it becomes a significant boost. The DMG says that just making an NPC a lizardfolk instead of, say, an orc, only raises its CR by 1. But the actual sample 5th-level lizardfolk NPC Druid doesn't have the hide armor that's listed as part of the equipment for a normal Druid. There's probably a reason for that.

One possible way to deal with this would be to make lizardfolk incapable of wearing normal armor, like warforged. Alternately, you could lower or remove their natural armor and have just have lizardfolk warriors wear armor. Then, with the major unbalancing factor gone, you could take away their LA, remove their racial hit dice, make them Monstrous Humanoids, give them Powerful Build, and/or some other improvement.

A type change would make them ineligible for Enlarge Person, though.

If they're given Powerful Build, maybe they should be. That spell isn't really intended to be able to make someone bigger than Large, and a Large creature with Powerful Build is effectively Huge for some purposes.

The size-enhancing spells really illustrate how inconsistent D&D 3.5 is about size categories, by the way. The weight of your equipment is multiplied by eight, but your carrying capacity doesn't increase nearly that much. Your greatsword now weighs four times what a Large greatsword does. How much damage does it deal? Can you even wield it anymore?

[Draz74]

The size-enhancing spells really illustrate how inconsistent D&D 3.5 is about size categories, by the way. The weight of your equipment is multiplied by eight, but your carrying capacity doesn't increase nearly that much. Your greatsword now weighs four times what a Large greatsword does. How much damage does it deal? Can you even wield it anymore?

That's realistic, actually ... squared/cubed ratios and all that ... the tallest humans have to wear leg braces just to hold up their own weight.

Mwahahaha, another catgirl dead!