[3.5]LA - why is it bad?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've seen lots of people here and on other forums say that level adjustment isn't worth it, and should be avoided. No-one's ever really mentioned why. I guess this has been covered before, and I'm expected to know already, but I must have missed that lecture.

So, a straight question: why do you think having a level adjustment for a race is bad?

[kamikasei]

The point of level adjustment is supposed to be that the special abilities granted by the race are worth the lost levels. This is simply held to not be the case in the vast majority of examples. Partly it's that the loss of HD and therefore hit points, saves and BAB make you too fragile and unbalanced for your level. Partly it's that class features for those levels are generally going to be worth more to you than most special abilities. Mostly it's just that WotC seems to calculate "appropriate" LA using a fiendishly complex and badly damaged computing engine programmed for EVIL.

(In fact, there's a widespread suspicion which may have support in comments from WotC insiders that LA races are deliberately overcosted in order to discourage players from picking "weird" races.)

[Bayar]

Having LA means you will be higher in level than the other party members, without having the equivalent power of a higher level character.

Plus, it delays spellcasting progression, no skill points, no feats, no HP, no BAB...

[Narazil]

Having LA means you will be higher in level than the other party members

Wait, what? How many DMs run characters by straight character level, and not ECL?
In all the games I've played, I've never encountered "free" LA like that. LA+CL(+RHD) = ECL, so in a ECL 2 party, you could be LA+1 and have one level of a class, or simply play a LA+0 and have two levels of a class.

[Optimystik]

Wait, what? How many DMs run characters by straight character level, and not ECL?
In all the games I've played, I've never encountered "free" LA like that. LA+CL(+RHD) = ECL, so in a ECL 2 party, you could be LA+1 and have one level of a class, or simply play a LA+0 and have two levels of a class.

That's what he meant, but worded poorly. (LA means you will actually be LOWER than the other party members, yet gain XP at the same rate they do.)

[Grumman]

So, a straight question: why do you think having a level adjustment for a race is bad?

Er... LA is inherently bad, the idea is that the rest of the race is good enough that it more or less balances out.

Unfortunately, outside of Gestalt and LA buyoff, this is rarely the case.

[Oslecamo]

Having LA means you will be higher in level than the other party members, without having the equivalent power of a higher level character.

Not necessarily. There's several LAs out there that are actualy quite balanced (half-ogre, ogre, pixie, the jackal thingy from MMV), and some that are actualy pretty darn strong (feral, mineral warrior).

Plus, it delays spellcasting progression, no skill points, no feats, no HP, no BAB...

Many LAs offer stat bonus or flat out skill bonus that make up for the lack of skill points, BAB and HP, and many template offer flat out extra feats.

The succubbus for example has +8 to a bunch of usefull skills, and then huge mental stats, so it will actualy have better mental skills than a 13th level character.

Really, the only ones who're screwed are spellcasters, and even then, just cast polymorph on yourself if you want to be an ogre wizard so badly.

[Narazil]

Not necessarily. There's several LAs out there that are actualy quite balanced (half-ogre, ogre, pixie, the jackal thingy from MMV), and some that are actualy pretty darn strong (feral, mineral warrior).

To be honest, no. The bonuses almost never outweigh what you give up.

You give up 6 levels to be an Ogre, for example - 4d8 hd, 3 BAB, and 4/1/1 saves is not that great for 4 levels.
ECL 7 Ogre with 1 level of Barbarian, 18 CON, will have roughly 47 HP. (12+8+9+8+10). A straight Barbarian would have roughly 79.


Mineral Warrior is pretty overpowered. It's a bit unfair to bring it up here.

[Oslecamo]

To be honest, no. The bonuses almost never outweigh what you give up.

Depends on what you're using the LA for. If you pick ogre and plan to

You give up 6 levels to be an Ogre, for example - 4d8 hd, 3 BAB, and 4/1/1 saves is not that great for 4 levels.

You however gain +10 str, +5 natural armor and +4 con.

A straight warrior dude would have +5/+2/+2 saves. You just lose 1. Hardly crippling. Wait, your fort actualy gets better thanks to the extra con. And being a giant AND large size protects you from several effects.

That's an extra +5 to hit (more than makes up for the lack of BAB) and a lot more damage.

Oh, and large size, wich is really really sweet for melee dude. Reach and bonus on grapple/trip and stuff.

So, if you plan to make a rogue ogre, it isn't that sweet, but an ogre barbarian/fighter/warblade works pretty well.

EDIT: Where did you get that math? If the normal barbarian has 18 con, the ogre barbarian has 22, for 54.5 HP. At higher levels, the ogre quickly surpasses the normal barbarian.

[Narazil]

You however gain +10 str, +5 natural armor and +4 con.

A straight warrior dude would have +5/+2/+2 saves. You just lose 1. Hardly crippling. Wait, your fort actualy gets better thanks to the extra con. And being a giant AND large size protects you from several effects.

That's an extra +5 to hit (more than makes up for the lack of BAB) and a lot more damage.

Oh, and large size, wich is really really sweet for melee dude. Reach and bonus on grapple/trip and stuff.

So, if you plan to make a rogue ogre, it isn't that sweet, but an ogre barbarian/fighter/warblade works pretty well.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying an Ogre Barbarian (for example) would flat out suck compare to a standard one. They just tend to become glass cannons, even with their +4 CON. d8 racial HD and LA hurts. Coupled with worse save than usual, you could easily find yourself in a world of hurt.

Edit: HP - let's see.
Human: 12, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7 + 28 from CON bonus - 79 HP.
Ogre: 8, 4, 5, 4, 6, + 30 from CON bonus - 57.

Should be correct. Ogre with +6 CON bonus.

[Oslecamo]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying an Ogre Barbarian (for example) would flat out suck compare to a standard one. They just tend to become glass cannons, even with their +4 CON. d8 racial HD and LA hurts. Coupled with worse save than usual, you could easily find yourself in a world of hurt.

The save is just -1 than normal at will and reflex. The fort is actualy better.

And the ogre ends up with more HP at high levels. Your math was wrong. At 7th level the ogre has 57 and the "normal" has 79. And then the ogre gets 12,5 per level while the "normal" gets 10,5. Around level 18, they should be equal.

And then the ogre can make LA buyoff to get more ahead.

[Narazil]

The save is just -1 than normal at will and reflex.

And the ogre ends up with more HP at high levels. Your math was wrong. At 7th level the ogre has 54,5 and the "normal" has 73,5. And then the ogre gets 12,5 per level while the "normal" gets 10,5.

Yea I know, I edited in the proper numbers in the post above.

[Foryn Gilnith]

They just tend to become glass cannons, even with their +4 CON. d8 racial HD and LA hurts.

More precisely, in terms of brute HP, Ogre doesn't break even compared to a human barbarian until ECL 14. At ECL 13 the human has 1 more HP on average, at ECL 14 the ogre has that 1 HP advantage.
Con has other benefits, of course, but HP is the big one.

EDIT: With LA buyoff the levels just shift down by 1. Still a long time to wait to have average HP.

[Oslecamo]

Yea I know, I edited in the proper numbers in the post above.

Then let's check the pro-cons here:

Ogre loses:
-Worst reflex and will.
-Worst HP(untill level 14)
-One less feat.
-Two levels behind skill points and horrid mental stats.

Ogre wins:
-Better AC and fortitude.
-Faster and bigger reach, so he can close in the enemy taking less hits.
-MUCH better battlefield control thanks to large size.
-More raw damage thanks to higher STR, despite the loss of BAB.
-Qualifies for large-size special stuff.

So, really, how is the ogre left behind? Two defenses down, two defenses up, he'll reach the enemy faster to make up for the lack of HP and hits hard all the time. His non str skill sucks, ok, but that's your average dumb barbarian for you.

[Runestar]

That's the thing about LA. It stings really bad at lower lvs, when you really need all the HD you can get to survive (since it is the only thing which grants extra hp, the rest can really be simulated using superior physical stats).

At higher lvs, you should have enough hp to weather a few hits before going down, so having less hp compared to a straight-classed PC isn't all that bad. I know that at lv14+, I wouldn't mind taking a template like half-celestial or half-dragon compared to more lvs of fighter or barb.

Plus, monsters tend to come with natural armour (to compensate for them not typically wearing armour). So a melee monster PC will typically have better AC but worse hp. This tradeoff is supposedly worth it.

The loss of bab does delay the acquisition of iterative attacks, though again, this has it breakpoints. So depending on the lv of play, you may or may not feel the pinch.

The funny thing about the OP's statement is that I have heard that statement only used in the contest of pure spellcasters, as no amount of racial benefits can presumably compensate for the loss of spellcaster lvs. Conversely for fighters, templates/monster PCs can pretty much replicate what they get (and possibly more).

[Xenogears]

More precisely, in terms of brute HP, Ogre doesn't break even compared to a human barbarian until ECL 14. At ECL 13 the human has 1 more HP on average, at ECL 14 the ogre has that 1 HP advantage.
Con has other benefits, of course, but HP is the big one.

EDIT: With LA buyoff the levels just shift down by 1. Still a long time to wait to have average HP.

But large-Sized means Warhulk. Warhulk is awesome. Also Knockback. And +5Reach. And some other stuff. I'd say if you tally the plus' and minus' it winds up about equal in the end. Which is exactly what should happen with LA. You should be equal to someone of your ECL. Weaker in some areas and stronger in others of course. HP happens to be an area youd be weak in. You would do more damage though. About the same chance to hit (BAB loss made up for by +STR). Better AC. Slightly worse saves. Etc.

[Cuaqchi]

The other problem with 'HP' however is something that an increased CON doesn't help against. A large number of spells are limited by target Hit Dice if you have 2 or 3 levels without hit-dice you can and often will be targetted by effects that your allies shrug off.

It is why Racial Hit Dice as sucky as they are, are not as bad as LA. Even if you get only d4 points per level (Fey) you have increased your hit dice and resistance to said spells. Add in Natural Armour, Spell-Like Abilities, Size, etc. and if nothing else Racial Hit Dice can be considered comparable to certain melee class hit dice though this isn't always the case.

[magic9mushroom]

Mostly, the LA isn't worth it. Take trolls for instance. With 5 HD and 6 LA (might be the other way around) you can play one at level 11. But they're a CR 5 monster, which will be utterly slaughtered by CR 11 threats.

There are some LAs that are worth it or even overpowered, one of the most infamous being White Dragonspawn which has +1 LA in exchange for +2 Dex, +2 Con, +7 natural armour, a breath weapon, natural weapons, flight at double land speed with good maneuverability, low-light and darkvision, and a level of sorcerer casting as well as the monstrous humanoid type and access to dragon feats.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I think some of the LA's are good. Some are bad..

Pixie is good for its LA
as are half ogre... etc

some are not so hot for there LA
such as the genasi or asamar's or tieflings, etc

and others that need LA such as wisper gnomes...

I think the LA system is inherently good... with or without buy off.
I just think that some of the races need to have there stuff readjusted.. as well as I think the rules for Racial HD need to be changed..

Why is it that if i have 1 HD race i can drop that racial HD for a class level but when i have a 2hd race i can't drop one of them for a class level...

[Oslecamo]

Mostly, the LA isn't worth it. Take trolls for instance. With 5 HD and 6 LA (might be the other way around) you can play one at level 11. But they're a CR 5 monster, which will be utterly slaughtered by CR 11 threats.

LA doesn't work that way...Your PC troll will benefit from the following:
-Point buy, so he gets better stats than your average troll.
-PC wealth. Money is power.
-PC support. Your average troll normaly won't have a caster or two of same level buffing him.

So, really, he'll be much stronger than your average CR5 troll.

Granted, 6 LA may still be too much for a troll.

[Xenogears]

Why is it that if i have 1 HD race i can drop that racial HD for a class level but when i have a 2hd race i can't drop one of them for a class level...

That annoys me too. LA tends to be too high anyway but the difference between 1 RHD and 2 RHD is huge. It sucks.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'd say if you tally the plus' and minus' it winds up about equal in the end.

OK, sure; I'm not willing to argue that, and there are many good points in your favor. I'm just saying that one of the minuses is a significant loss of HP. After some bad experiences with an LA race, that is unpalatable for me, personally.

[RagnaroksChosen]

That annoys me too. LA tends to be too high anyway but the difference between 1 RHD and 2 RHD is huge. It sucks.

ya honestly I think what ever companies make d20 games need to sit and look at the LA and RHD of things make sure thats where they should be.
I still think you should be able to trade in 1 racial hit die for class levels.
I don't think LA should change, I do think RHD should change a bit and I think ALL races should have there LA's checked.


I also belive RHD are a function of CR. in the sense that it seems RHD are what they are do to a monsters CR.

[magic9mushroom]

LA doesn't work that way...Your PC troll will benefit from the following:
-Point buy, so he gets better stats than your average troll.

Elite array. Sure. That's +1 CR.

-PC wealth. Money is power.

The same applies to any PC, kinda.

-PC support. Your average troll normaly won't have a caster or two of same level buffing him.

Depends on the encounter. It's an externality.

So, really, he'll be much stronger than your average CR5 troll.

Granted, 6 LA may still be too much for a troll.

Ok, yeah, CR 6 + PC wealth. Compared to the rest of the party at CR 11 (11 presumably synergistic class levels) + PC wealth. He sucks.

[Runestar]

The interesting thing about trolls is that MM5 introduced the bladerager troll, which has the same ECL, but is superior in every aspect (even gets free mindblank!). So it can be argued that in hindsight, the troll's ECL is too high.

But some monsters do possess abilities that npcs just aren't equipped to deal with, and designers probably assumed the worse case scenario when trying to balance that out. For example, troll's regeneration is hard to overcome since many monsters in the MM don't automatically have access to fire/acid damage. This means your troll PC can be very difficult to kill, especially if he can access fire/acid resistance (easier for a PC with better access to magic gear/buffs).

Or look at the angels with their laundry list of special abilities. How do you even begin to balance those out?

But I agree that the first step should be to re-evaluate the ECLs of every monster in existence.

[Xenogears]

OK, sure; I'm not willing to argue that, and there are many good points in your favor. I'm just saying that one of the minuses is a significant loss of HP. After some bad experiences with an LA race, that is unpalatable for me, personally.

Yeah it can really really suck to be a Glass Cannon when you're trying to be a Tank.

[Oslecamo]

Ok, yeah, CR 6 + PC wealth. Compared to the rest of the party at CR 11 (11 presumably synergistic class levels) + PC wealth. He sucks.

What you're missing here is that non-humanoid monsters normaly get a lot less treasure than humanoids.

An humanoid NPC of CR11 gets a lot more gear than a CR11 monster whitout class levels as per the rules. The humanoid is expected to have extra gear to make up for the lack of super special abilities and obscene stats.

Thus, you cannot say that the extra wealth of the troll cancels the extra wealth of the party. The party is expected to have super gear. The troll isn't.

Anyway, the LA is still too high, but something like +2/+3 LA should be balanced.

[Xenogears]

Anyway, the LA is still too high, but something like +2/+3 LA should be balanced.

The main problem with LA is it has to change depending on the indivudual game. If everyone is playing monks, truenampers, and CW Samurai your probably better off leaving the ECL as is. If everyone is using ToB it might need to be lowered. If your setting is the Plane of Fire it neds to be lowered A LOT. If its the Plane of Fire and Acid Don't Exist Here it needs to be raised a lot. Etc.

LA really seems like something a DM would hafta work out himself given the average level of optimization and setting specific weaknesses/strengths. And thats a lot of work.

[Oslecamo]

LA really seems like something a DM would hafta work out himself given the average level of optimization and setting specific weaknesses/strengths. And thats a lot of work.

But you can say that from anything in D&D!

If the part is composed of a truenamer, a monk and a sorceror with only damage spells, and then a new player comes with a batman wizard/incantrix, you'll probably have to tell the new player to make a new weaker character.

If the party is composed of a planar sheperd, cheater of mystra and artificer of DOOM, you'll probably have to find a way to buff the newbie's warlock.

And heck, one sugestion I even made in this forum was that for higher powered campaigns, players could trade dead levels for free LA.

And honestly, if your seting is in the plane of fire, why the hell would anyone want to play a troll? That would be like puting ranks in swimming in a desert campaign!

Thus, we should look at the average D&D game, aka the average D&D classes. Barbarian, rogue and bard in particular are excellent middle points. If a monster PC can keep up with them, then the LA should be fine.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The main problem with LA is it has to change depending on the indivudual game. If everyone is playing monks, truenampers, and CW Samurai your probably better off leaving the ECL as is. If everyone is using ToB it might need to be lowered. If your setting is the Plane of Fire it neds to be lowered A LOT. If its the Plane of Fire and Acid Don't Exist Here it needs to be raised a lot. Etc.

LA really seems like something a DM would hafta work out himself given the average level of optimization and setting specific weaknesses/strengths. And thats a lot of work.

I think one needs to look at it as a generic point of view of course situationaly it could be raised or lowered... but in a standard generic dnd game would it be over powered.