Sorcerers or Wizards?

[craverguy]

In Dungeons & Dragons v. 3.0 and 3.5, which do you feel is the better arcane spellcasting class, wizards or sorcerers? Which would you say gets the better tradeoff between their separate spellcasting systems?

[Optimystik]

Wizards are better, because spells known > spells/day.

They also have a better casting stat, and actual class features.

[craverguy]

I thought they had the same class features as sorcerers: spells, a familiar, and...more spells.

[Optimystik]

I thought they had the same class features as sorcerers: spells, a familiar, and...more spells.

Sorcerers don't get bonus feats.

It's not much, but it's still something.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Depends on what you want to do. If you only want to do one thing and do it a lot, the sorcerer's lack of versatility isn't all that bad. Otherwise, wizard tends to be better.

I thought they had the same class features as sorcerers: spells, a familiar, and...more spells.

The difference is that the wizard can put as many spells he wants in his spellbook(s) and change his spells each day, whereas the sorcerer has to choose spells at level-up and has few opportunities to change them. If a sorcerer knows only fire blasting spells and comes across a fire-immune creature without a way to overcome immunity, he's screwed; if a wizard has prepared only fire blasting spells and comes across a fire-immune creature without a way to overcome immunity, he retreats, prepares cold blasting spells or non-blasting spells and returns to finish the fight. Quality generally beats quantity.

[valadil]

I think wizards are better, but I have more fun with sorcerers. I'd rather react to the threat at hand than try to guess (or divine, but that depends on how much info the GM is willing to give out) and speculate.

Note that when I say sorcerer, I mean the kind that either has rapid metamagic or the phb2 variant. Without fast metamagic I wouldn't bother playing a sorc.

[Zen Monkey]

I know it's not the popular opinion on these boards, but I like the flexibility of the sorcerer's spontaneous casting. It can be hard to predict how many uses of a particular spell you'll need on a given day. The ability to pick and choose as necessary (provided you learned a good assortment of spells) can help to find just the right answer for a surprising problem.

[Lin Bayaseda]

Sorcerers are also one level late to getting every new spell level. On high levels, spells-per-day are rarely an issue. How often does a level 15 or 20 spellcaster of any class exhaust his spells?

And on low-to-mid-levels, specialization almost closes the gap in spells-per-day.

EDIT:

I know it's not the popular opinion on these boards, but I like the flexibility of the sorcerer's spontaneous casting.

But that's the problem, isn't it - he's "flexible" among a very small number of spells. For example, a level 6 sorcerer only has 1 spell level 3 known. One! Where's the flexibility?

[Defiant]

Wizards are better and more powerful, though sorcerers are easier to play.

[Doc Roc]

It depends on the level of abuse you plan to level. Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, and a few others often mean that the sorcerer is better in practical terms.

[JoshuaZ]

In Dungeons & Dragons v. 3.0 and 3.5, which do you feel is the better arcane spellcasting class, wizards or sorcerers? Which would you say gets the better tradeoff between their separate spellcasting systems?

Wizards are generally better for optimization purposes. However, a low-level wizard can run out of spells much more easily than a sorcerer. Also, if a wizard has poorly prepared spells for some event they are screwed. A sorcerer doesn't need to worry about that as much (although they then have less flexibility overall). Wizards have much more of an out-of-combat advantage than sorcerers. Wizards also get bonus feats that the sorcerer's don't and get access to a new spell level 1 level earlier. The earlier access to new spell levels also means that after 2nd level, every other level, the wizard can cast a whole new class of spells that a sorcerer cannot. Thus, on average the wizard is more powerful, and every other level, the wizard is unambiguously better. By the time one reaches 5th level and the wizard gets the bonus feat and another spell level, the sorcerer is now two feats behind the wizard (one must be Scribe Scroll but still...) and it just gets worse from there. That's even before we think about the wizard having a better skill selection or the like.

Overall, wizards are better on average although sorcerers at very low levels (levels 1 and 2) are potentially better. But starting at 3rd wizards pull ahead, and by 5th wizards are clearly ahead and the difference just gets more extreme as levels increase.

[Kobold-Bard]

Wizards are superior because they can have the right tool for every eventuality, whereas Sorceres have to pick spells they'll use every day. Type Logicninja and Being Batman into Google for a more in depth reasoning.

I personally prefer Sorcerers though because re-preparing spells each day annoys me.

[Jacob Orlove]

Also, having a high intelligence gives you lots of skill points. Having a high charisma gives basically nothing.

And Wizards don't actually get fewer spells. Lets compare a Wizard and a Sorcerer (each with a 16 in their casting stat) at level 5:

Sorcerer: 7 first level spells, 5 second level spells
Specialist Wizard: 5 first level spells, 4 second level spells, 3 third level spells

That's exactly the same number of spells, but the wizard gets higher overall spell levels! Sorcerers catch up on the even levels, but their delayed spell progression really hurts in comparison to what the wizard gets.

And if the wizard is allowed to take the Focused Specialist variant, they will have more spells than the Sorcerer at every level.

[ericgrau]

Sorcerers are more versatile, wizards are more powerful. The supposed spells known versatility only applies to utility spells, as different spells actually prepared is the same or less. Utility spells come up far less often, and the simple ones are best handled with scrolls for both classes.

[Pyro_Azer]

Sorcerers are more versatile, wizards are more powerful. The supposed spells known versatility only applies to utility spells, as different spells actually prepared is the same or less. Utility spells come up far less often, and the simple ones are best handled with scrolls for both classes.

How are sorcerers more versatile when wizards get far more spells known?

[craverguy]

He's saying it doesn't matter how many more spells you know if you don't have them prepared.

[Optimystik]

But that's the problem, isn't it - he's "flexible" among a very small number of spells. For example, a level 6 sorcerer only has 1 spell level 3 known. One! Where's the flexibility?

Obviously, he can wiggle his fingers in slightly different ways as he spams it.

[Saph]

Sorcerers require a lot of skill in spell selection, but if you're good at that, they can be pretty effective. Their main drawback is always being one level behind. This becomes less of an issue as you level up. Once a sorcerer hits about level 7, they should have enough spells known to do OK in any normal situation.

Bear in mind that Wizards usually end up preparing pretty much the same spell list every day anyway, at least for combat, so the lack of spells known isn't actually as big a drawback as you might think.

[Narazil]

He's saying it doesn't matter how many more spells you know if you don't have them prepared.

It does at higher levels, though, when you get access to Teleport and Scrying.

[magic9mushroom]

With enough cheese (Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, bought-off White Dragonspawn, Arcane Spellsurge, (Greater) Arcane Fusion, etc) a sorcerer can pull ahead in raw power, but they can never match a wizard's versatility. Without that kind of extreme cheese a wizard is generally better at both.

[Pyro_Azer]

It does at higher levels, though, when you get access to Teleport and Scrying.

Or when you consider the fact it is far easier to get more spells per day than it is to get spells known (pearls of power, rings of wizardry, high casting stat, etc...).

[Doc Roc]

Actually, spells known isn't terribly difficult.

[drengnikrafe]

When I posted this same question, a few days after I made my account, I got the following response:

"You have no idea what can of worms you just opened."

Followed by dozens of:

"Wizards are 'better', but sorcerers are more fun to play."

Just in case you were wondering what the playground was like a few years ago. In any case, I believe wizards are better. I believe once you have a grip on magic, wizards can do a lot more, although they take a lot more thinking. Sorcerers are much easier to play, since you only need to make the decision of what you want whenever you level up, instead of every morning. Sorcerers have a slightly more difficult time with abusing metamagic. Ultimately, though, my thoughts on the matter ignore crunch in favor of fluff. Wizards work for long, hard years studying, investigating, and observing the effects of magic. They are (generically) studious and hardworking. Sorcerers woke up one morning and said "Why is my cup floating?", then had access to magic. That is my perception of the situation, and the 'easy way out' is why I don't like, and will likely never play, sorcerers.

[magic9mushroom]

Actually, spells known isn't terribly difficult.

You can get a couple more spells known without much trouble, but the gulf in spells known (which hurts the sorcerer) is much bigger than the gulf in spells/day (which hurts the wizard).

[Vizzerdrix]

Wizards are the stronger class, hands down. However, I prefer playing sorcerers, myself*. I hate having to keep track of all the spells known and prepared each day.



*I should say, I prefer spontaneous casting over prepared casting.

[Soranar]

Gameplay versus design

Sorcerers are harder to create, since picking your spells is a big deal, and severely limits you. But they are a lot simpler to play.

Wizards aren't very complicated to create, but are insanely complicated to play.

Sorcerers also get less feats (4 total) , which is huge imo, and they can't quicken spells unless you use a way around it. However they do tend to catch up at later levels.

At high levels,magic items and various wands can do all the tricks a wizard can do that you didn't bother with (buffing for example) and unlike a wizard you don't need to find the proper scrolls to learn your spells. Of course a wizard benefits from these too but since he often has the spell he won't get the same benefit unless it's from his barred school.

So you'll never find yourself completely unprepared for a fight since you generally use spells that just work against everything. You also concentrate on battlefield control since buff/debuff spells are usually not worth it (there are some exceptions say dispel magic and disjunction) and you're far more likely to have the perfect spell ready unlike a wizard who didn't expect a particular fight. By level 20 a sorcerer has a basic of 6 spellslots/level while a wizard only has 4. That is a huge difference. But gaining level 9 spells at level 18 instead of 17 is not a small problem.

Finally a straight wizard is just better overall at many/nearly all levels, but if you play a gish, a sorcerer tends to come out on top since a high charisma is useful for all kinds of things (saves through paladin, DMM through cleric, etc).

To me it comes down to this.

Sorcerer 1 vs wizard 1 = Sorcerer on top
level 5=wizard
level 10=roughly equal
level 15=wizard again
level 20=sorcerer (barely)

Some templates/races also benefit the sorcerer more as Charisma is considered fairly cheap compared to Int.

But obviously, playing through a campaign instead of starting level 20, I'd go wizard.

[magic9mushroom]

Wizards are the stronger class, hands down.

A White Dragonspawn Kobold Sorcerer with bought off LA abusing the Sorcerer-specific spells would beg to differ.

[Vizzerdrix]

A White Dragonspawn Kobold Sorcerer with bought off LA abusing the Sorcerer-specific spells would beg to differ.

Class vs. class, not optimization vs. optimization.

[magic9mushroom]

Class vs. class, not optimization vs. optimization.

I'm just saying, with high optimisation, Sorcerers get more raw power than Wizards with the same amount of optimisation.

[DementedFellow]

Personally, given the choice, I will ALWAYS go Sorcerer. Sorcerers to me are more flavorful than wizards. "I bend reality over my knee by my sheer force of personality alone" is a lot more awesome than, "I read arcane tomes of power to fuel my spells". Another way of putting it is, the wizard can say, "I read books daily and know magic." And a Sorcerer can reply, "I AM magic."

Regardless of my personal preference, Wizards are the "better" class. Their main attribute relates to skill points, which can heavily influence some games. They get more feats, which is huge. And they get more access to prestige classes. Certain PrCs are not only more suited to wizards, but are unable to be entered by sorcerers, with a strict reading of the requirements.