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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    What would be the consequences of allowing characters to select a class, and then allow them to choose powers from any class list they desire?

    4e is exceptionally balanced, so it would seem that this would not be generally game breaking, and it would allow things like greataxe-wielding rogues without making all of his powers useless.

    I am not really as familiar with 4e as I could be (group gave up seven sessions in), so somebody in the know tell me why this is a bad idea please.
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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    What would be the consequences of allowing characters to select a class, and then allow them to choose powers from any class list they desire?
    Won't everyone just choose the class that starts with the most hitpoints?

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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    4e is exceptionally balanced, so it would seem that this would not be generally game breaking, and it would allow things like greataxe-wielding rogues without making all of his powers useless.
    4E is exceptionally balanced precisely because it does not allow greataxe-wielding rogues and the like.

    So yeah, it'd break the game, hard. For a (somewhat) less game-breaking method, try Hybrid Classes.

    EDIT: Slightly more nuanced explanation
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    4E is balanced because:
    (1) No one class can do everything on its own [e.g. The Wizard Problem]

    (2) Every class has something it is good at [e.g. The Fighter Problem]

    Assuming that you got rid of all the restrictions regarding Rogue Powers and Sneak Attack, a Greataxe Rogue would both deal lots of Weapon Damage and lots of Other Damage - it would be one of the most powerful Strikers around [a better idea would be a Dwarven Battleraging Ranger that can Curse-Sneak Attack with Craghammers]. As it is, the Rogue is very good at dealing situational Burst Damage, the Ranger is good at DPR, and the Barbarian is good at Big Hits. Variety.

    Similarly, a character that could heal, buff, debuff, defend and strike really well would obsolete classes that can only do one of those well, another OK, and the others not-so-well.
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2010-02-12 at 03:24 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Lin Bayaseda View Post
    Won't everyone just choose the class that starts with the most hitpoints?
    Class features.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    I think it'd depend on the encounters per day. If you average 1 or 2 encounters, not much of a difference with super multi-classing. If you go for multiple encounters per day you could for example: build a tank that is always regenerating and has DR and every encounter power involves multiple attacks. Basically their standard abilities would equal their burst. I'd be quite happy to have a tank with warden/barbarian powers that give me encounter lasting DR and fighter powers that give me encounter lasting regeneration with a smattering of wizard utility spells on the side. Add in some temporary hitpoint gaining methods and you'd having something stronger than the original battlerager vigor fighter option.

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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    If you want the characters to have a little more variety,perhaps a rule that says you can pick powers form any list, but at least half your powers must come from your own class.

    This might still boarder on game-breaking though.

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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Lin Bayaseda View Post
    Won't everyone just choose the class that starts with the most hitpoints?
    I don't think so.
    Not everyone wants to be a warden.

    As per the OP question, I don't think it would be so bad.
    You could be a Rogue with a greataxe, but you still couldn't sneak attack with it. (you have to be wielding a rogue weapon right?)
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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Duos Greanleef View Post
    You could be a Rogue with a greataxe, but you still couldn't sneak attack with it. (you have to be wielding a rogue weapon right?)
    Nor could you use any Rogue Power, since they all require a "Light Blade, Crossbow, or Sling." Just like Sneak Attack.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Rogues get their damage from Sneak Attack. Giving them access to Greataxes and powers using them would do nothing, as they'd have all the penalties of Axes (low proficiency, not many good enchants for CA-dependent characters) without any Rogue benefits (still no Sneak Attack, and no benefit from Rogue Weapon Talent).

    On the other hand, with the feats that let them wield 1-hand Heavy Blades for Sneak Attack and Two-Blade Warrior, you'll have Sneak Attacking Twin Striking Rogues attacking for 2d10+2d8+2*(static modifiers). You'll also have Fighters using Blade Cascade without burning feats on Ranger multiclass or grabbing Barbarian powers that are strictly better (Barbarians' damage output is primarily built-in to their powers) than their own.

    You'll also have Swordmages who now have Thunderwave and/or Commander's Strike, the former being more formidable due to Swordmages having high enough AC to front-line and the latter being dangerous due to a Swordmage's massive Int.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    What would be the consequences of allowing characters to select a class, and then allow them to choose powers from any class list they desire?
    Doesn't work. Some classes have kick-ass features (swordmages) and some have kick-ass powers (barbarian, wizard). You don't want to mix that.

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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    You'll also have Swordmages who now have Thunderwave and/or Commander's Strike, the former being more formidable due to Swordmages having high enough AC to front-line and the latter being dangerous due to a Swordmage's massive Int.
    Technically, your 11th Level Half-Elf can do just that

    My favorite is the Half-Elven Avenger with Twin Strike. Sure, Half-Elf ain't great for Avengers, but I think the trade-off is appropriate.

    Or you can just do a Hybrid Avenger/Ranger for maximum legal breakitude
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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    What would be the consequences of allowing characters to select a class, and then allow them to choose powers from any class list they desire?

    4e is exceptionally balanced, so it would seem that this would not be generally game breaking, and it would allow things like greataxe-wielding rogues without making all of his powers useless.

    I am not really as familiar with 4e as I could be (group gave up seven sessions in), so somebody in the know tell me why this is a bad idea please.
    Generally, I'd consider it a bad idea. Mostly because it would be boring.

    After all, no one would choose but the most powerful and useful powers. For instance, nearly every striker you went for would choose ranger and tempest powers, and either barbarian primary (for extra hits on criticals) or avenger primary (for being able to re-roll, again, for more criticals).

    Also, axe feats require strength and constitution, whereas daggers and other light blades require moderate strength and dex. Rogues are meant to be a quick, agile class. When you start wanting her to go into strength and what not, well, you might as well make said rogue into a barbarian.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] Had a Strange Thought

    hmm. fighter with range burst at-will to mark groups...

    Avengers with barbarian powers and thus barbarian level damage output

    ooohhh... Use a fighter stance, barbarian rage, and warden polymorph all at once... sure its three daily's, but that is one dead BBEG

    free reign power choices is very abusable... as DM I'd consider a trade on a limited basis with good reason (especially if multiclassing. I hate the way paragon multiclass works, it needs a re-work badly)

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