[3.5] Ways to abuse an anima mage

[Arakune]

Let's say you are a human (or other race with bonus feats), with two flaws. You have 4 feats at first level (Bind Vestige; Bind Vestige, Improved; Invisible Spell; Precocious Aprendice; ???) and if my interpretation is right, now you can be a Wizard/Sorcerer 1/Anima mage 10.

How do you break this?

[Optimystik]

Yes, you can enter Anima Mage without actually being a Binder, but there are bound to be better choices to do so than Wiz/Sorcerer, because Anima Mage only advances one arcane or one manifesting class. Try fighter instead for the bonus feat, fort save and BAB, for example.

[Darrin]

Let's say you are a human (or other race with bonus feats), with two flaws. You have 4 feats at first level (Bind Vestige; Bind Vestige, Improved; Invisible Spell; Precocious Aprendice; ???) and if my interpretation is right, now you can be a Wizard/Sorcerer 1/Anima mage 10.

How do you break this?

Emphasis added. Whenever you add that metamagic feat to any spell, you have to try really *REALLY* hard NOT to break something.

As far as binding/anima mage... I'm not all that familiar with the mechanics, but the Bind Vestige feat (Improved or otherwise) is not particularly... useful, let's say. Since I think you only get one vestige ability via feats, you can only trade it in for one bonus spell slot. Thus, you're spending four feats for something you could do with just one feat by picking up Extra Slot instead.

Vestige Metamagic is a little more towards the broken end of the pool, but if I understand it correctly, you can apply one metamagic feat to any spell you cast once every 5 rounds. So in that respect... yeah, I guess that would be fairly powerful once every 5 rounds, particularly if you're using persistent spell, but other than that... the usual stacking shenanigans with Arcane Thesis and so forth are a little easier to pull off, but very feat intensive. Going full-on Anima Mage without picking up bonus metamagic from Wizard or Incantatrix levels means the more powerful combos won't kick in until the very high levels, when even un-optimized non-Metamagic Wizards can do similar stuff.

[Arakune]

Yes, you can enter Anima Mage without actually being a Binder, but there are bound to be better choices to do so than Wiz/Sorcerer, because Anima Mage only advances one arcane or one manifesting class. Try fighter instead for the bonus feat, fort save and BAB, for example.

Care to elaborate how to do it? You still need to cast second level spells.

Edit: Oh right, Persist Spell. Good way to persist for free all your buffs.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think he thinks that you have both a level in wizard and a level in sorcerer.

[Optimystik]

I think he thinks that you have both a level in wizard and a level in sorcerer.

Yes, that is what I had thought

Sorcerer is not a good choice - Vestige Metamagic actually says nothing about preventing an increase in casting time. Logically, it should, but RAW it does not.

[Radar]

Yes, that is what I had thought

Sorcerer is not a good choice - Vestige Metamagic actually says nothing about preventing an increase in casting time. Logically, it should, but RAW it does not.

With Arcane Spellsurge, that defect becomes an asset.

[Otodetu]

Searched up this topic btw

If I have bind vestige and bind vestige improved as a level 3 wizard, and start gaining anima mage levels, what happens to my binder progression?


The class ability reads: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

The feat reads: If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefits.


If I where to interpret this in a rather abusive way I would say you start binding as a real level 1 binder at your first level of anima mage, but you have paid two feats for the benefit.

[Flickerdart]

That seems to be the RAW because of the specific wording. There is no "+1 to existing binding class" clause that most progression PrCs have.

[Tinydwarfman]

Ok, I must be missing something, why not just take one level in binder? Vestiges have some pretty nice abilities.

[lord_khaine]

Because each level of binder taken is 1 level not taken as a wizard.

[lsfreak]

Because each level of binder taken is 1 level not taken as a wizard.

The issue is that you get zero benefits from the binder half of Anima Mage if you just enter via feats, and if you at least take one level of binder you end up with a couple decent vestiges to bind with you. On top of that, wizards/sorcs can be pretty feat-intensive at it is.

One lost caster level and one feat -> gain 6th level vestiges and 11th effective binder level (including the ability to get an extra spell per day and the ability to more effectively nova with Vestige Metamagic)
Two lost feats -> don't lose the caster level.

I'd rather have the extra feat and the extra vestiges, myself.

[Sliver]

Searched up this topic btw

If I have bind vestige and bind vestige improved as a level 3 wizard, and start gaining anima mage levels, what happens to my binder progression?


The class ability reads: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

The feat reads: If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefits.


If I where to interpret this in a rather abusive way I would say you start binding as a real level 1 binder at your first level of anima mage, but you have paid two feats for the benefit.

So you can start as a wizard with the feats, enter anima mage, gain binder benefits and lose feat benefits, and then retrain your feats to something you can use?

[lsfreak]

So you can start as a wizard with the feats, enter anima mage, gain binder benefits and lose feat benefits, and then retrain your feats to something you can use?

If you retrain the feats, though, you no longer qualify for anima mage.

[sofawall]

If you retrain the feats, though, you no longer qualify for anima mage.

The Binder advancement qualifies itself.

[lsfreak]

No it doesn't. As soon as you retrain the feats, you no longer have the ability to bind vestiges except by something granted by the class itself. You can't qualify for a prestige class using itself. Therefore, you lose all benefits of anima mage, except for skill points, BAB, and hit dice.

[DragoonWraith]

+1 level of existing Binder class. It only advances a class you already have. If you've never been a Binder, it advances nothing.

[lsfreak]

+1 level of existing Binder class. It only advances a class you already have. If you've never been a Binder, it advances nothing.

Unfortunately, reading through it doesn't say that. Which is really screwy. It advanced you as a binder, even if you had no binder levels before.

My argument for 2 feats versus a caster level and a feat still stands though, at least for me. Also less likely to get a book thrown at your head.

EDIT: Welll...

At each anima mage level, your soul
binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in
the binder class.

It may or may not actually give you binder levels. I'm not sure.

[Greenish]

You can't qualify for a prestige class using itself.

You sure about that? Since Anima Mage gives you virtual Binder levels, you couldn't lose that qualification once you get in, no?

[Edit]: And yeah, this is rather RAWtarded and inconsequential.

[Sliver]

You can't qualify for a prestige class using itself.

I'm interested in the source of that.. It seems pretty popular to me that fallen paladin levels are traded for blackguard levels. Won't it mean that unless you have enough BAB from other sources, you would disqualify yourself from the blackguard PrC?

[lsfreak]

You sure about that? Since Anima Mage gives you virtual Binder levels, you couldn't lose that qualification once you get in, no?

[Edit]: And yeah, this is rather RAWtarded and inconsequential.

At every moment in time, you have to qualify for the prestige class, without taking into consideration anything the prestige class gives you. If you lose the prerequisites - in this case, retraining the feats - you no longer qualify.

Essentially, you have to be able to look back at your chart of progression, line by line, and go:

Level 1 - FS Wizard. Bind Vestige, Invisible Spell, Scribe Scroll
All's good, move on...
Level 2 - FS Wizard.
All's good, move on...
Level 3 - FS Wizard. Improved Vestige.
All's good, move on...
Level 4 - Anima Mage.
All's good, move on...

However, when you retrain, you end up with:
Level 1 - FS Wizard. Improved Initiative, Invisible Spell, Scribe Scroll
All's good, move on...
Level 2 - FS Wizard.
All's good, move on...
Level 3 - FS Wizard. Split Ray.
All's good, move on...
Level 4 - Anima Mage.
Not good. You lack the prerequisites for your 4th level class, and so you lose all benefits. You can't use the prestige class to power itself because you check everything up before said class to make sure you qualify.

EDIT: Blackguard is a specific exception to the rule. It's kind of along the same line as the Schrödinger Dragon Disciple.

[Sliver]

EDIT: Blackguard is a specific exception to the rule. It's kind of along the same line as the Schrödinger Dragon Disciple.

But where can I find that rule? And where can I find said exception as being called out as such?

[sofawall]

So if I qualify for something using a Ring of Evasion, take it off, and put it on again, I cannot qualify for the prestige class, as I gained the Evasion after the prestige class levels?

[Greenish]

At every moment in time, you have to qualify for the prestige class, without taking into consideration anything the prestige class gives you.

I can't recall having seen that spelled out, where is it clarified?

[Flickerdart]

You seem to have an interesting interpretation of the simple rule:
"Should a character find herself in a position where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities gained from levels of the prestige class." It says nothing about the PrC not being able to qualify itself.

[lsfreak]

From Complete Warrior (and I believe Complete Arcane and several other sources):

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
where the character no longer qualifi es to be a member of the
class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefi t of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class. The character
retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as
any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses
that the class provided.

EDIT: Ah, I see what people are saying. My interpretation of it is that you have to always meet the PRErequisites for the class; that is, you have to have everything you need to qualify for the class, without taking the class into consideration. Hence the work "PRErequisites." I'm not sure that's actually spelled out anywhere.

[sofawall]

From Complete Warrior (and I believe Complete Arcane and several other sources):



EDIT: Ah, I see what people are saying. My interpretation of it is that you have to always meet the PRErequisites for the class; that is, you have to have everything you need to qualify for the class, without taking the class into consideration. Hence the work "PRErequisites." I'm not sure that's actually spelled out anywhere.

So we are agreed that what the book actually says in the actual rules published by the actual authors is that the retraining trick works?

[ZeroNumerous]

At every moment in time, you have to qualify for the prestige class, without taking into consideration anything the prestige class gives you. If you lose the prerequisites - in this case, retraining the feats - you no longer qualify.

I'd like to know where it's stated this is the case. I know you must qualify for a PrC to continue to have access to it, but if the PrC itself grants the very ability you need to access to it then you still qualify. It's idiotic, but it's RAW.

EDIT: Ironic that my avatar is a ninja...

[lsfreak]

So we are agreed that what the book actually says in the actual rules published by the actual authors is that the retraining trick works?

No, because of the definition of prerequisite. They are not requisites of the class, but prerequisites.

[sofawall]

No, because of the definition of prerequisite. They are not requisites of the class, but prerequisites.

Please show me where prerequisite is defined in D&D.

EDIT: A quick search of the SRD tells me that 'prerequisite' isn't even used in the Prestige Class descriptions.

EDIT2: Tome of Magic tells me the same.

Now are we in agreement that the actual printed rules let you do this?