[3.5]Inherited Template Confusion...

[Honeko]

First off, Hello all. I've looked around the forums and on Google and can't see to find an answer. Google always pointed me here to find the answers to other questions I've had so I figured I'd ask the advice of all those here.

Now.. I'm making a character for a 3.5 game, and the DM is fairly easy going. However, I wish to make sure I have everything right by the rules just for my sake.

I want to play a Half Minotaur Feral Human. Now, before anyone goes wild over the whole Half Minotaur and Feral are way to overpowered for their LA... It really doesn't matter to my DM. Plus, I'm going to be one of only two meat shields, the other being a troll possibly. The rest of the group includes a Derro rogue, a healer of some kind, an elf Sorcerer?, another elf, and a Kobold Warmage.

So anyway, on to my actual question... I'm first applying the Feral template to the Human. So then is this correct...

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Size and Type: Monstrous Humanoid/Medium
Hit Dice: As Class
Speed: 40' base land
AC: +6 Natural Armor
Attacks: Two claw attacks
Damage: 1d8
Special Attacks: None? (Or would this be Improved Grab?)
Special Qualities: Extra Feat at First Level, Four Extra Skill points at First Level, Extra Skill point per level (Does this include Fast Healing 2?)
Abilities: +4 Str, –2 Dex, +2 Con, –4 Int (minimum 3), +2 Wis
Level Adjustment: +1

Improved Grab and Fast Healing 2 require 1-3 Hit Dice. And as a "First Level" character does he even have 1 Hit Dice?

Now apply the Half Minotaur template over Feral Human... Option 1(Ignoring Size Increase adjusting Ability scores):

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Size and Type: Monstrous Humanoid/Large
Speed: 50' base land
Space/Reach: 10'?
AC: +10 Natural Armor, -1 Size
Attacks: Gore, Two Claw Attacks
Attack Bonus: -1 Size
Grapple: +4
Damage: 1d8 Gore, 2d6 Claw?
Special Attacks: None (Or Improved Grab)
Special Qualities: Extra Feat at First Level, Four Extra Skill points at First Level, Extra Skill point per level, Scent, Darkvision 60', +2 Racial Bonus on Search, Spot and Listen Checks, +4 Bonus to escape Maze, Know North (And Fast Healing 2?)
Feats: Track
Abilities: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -6 Int (minimum 3), +4 Wis
Level Adjustment: +2

Now Option 2(Size Increase adjusts Ability Scores):

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Abilities: +16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, -6 Int (minimum 3), +4 Wis

And this is before Classes are added in, and before Ability Scores are rolled/brought. Did I miss anything?


Thanks in advance for all the help.


References:
Humans (PH, pg 13)
Feral Template (SS, pg 116)
Half Minotaur Template (DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf, pg 11)
Changes to Statistics by Size (MM, pg 291)

[Yora]

A 1st level humanoid has 1 HD, so you get Fast Healing and Improved Grab.
The rest looks okay, but I don't know the exact traits of the Feral template.

But generally, there shouldn't be anything wrong with your concept.

[Curmudgeon]

"Special Qualities: Extra Feat at First Level, Four Extra Skill points at First Level, Extra Skill point per level"

These are only traits of a human. By applying the Feral template you become a monstrous humanoid instead of human, and lose these.

Augmented Subtype

A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

The extra feat and skill points are human racial traits; see Player's Handbook, page 13. The Feral template replaces human traits with monstrous humanoid racial traits.

[Honeko]

The Feral template replaces human traits with monstrous humanoid racial traits.

And where would one find Monstrous Humanoid Racial Traits?

[Bibliomancer]

And where would one find Monstrous Humanoid Racial Traits?

Those would be in the MM I, towards the end (one of the chapters about creating new monsters).

[Curmudgeon]

And where would one find Monstrous Humanoid Racial Traits?

You can also find them here.

[sofawall]

So, what you are saying, Curmudgeon, is a Feral Dwarf doesn't get his +2 con?

[Honeko]

So all a Feral Human gets is Darkvision 60', Claws, Fast Healing 2, and Improved Grab? o.O Cuz every thing else gets overwritten by class features. I mean like Hit Dice, BAB, etc.

That doesn't seem right to me. I've always thought that adding a template helped you/the monster not hindered you. Even the MM suggests adding a template to improve monsters. To me, an extra feat helps more than claws and improved grab. And when can a human even use improved grab?

Also, When the feral human gains levels thus Hit Dice, does he earn the other Specials associated with the feral template? Like at ECL 5 aka Level 4, he has 4 HD so would he get the better fast healing and the Pounce ability? (AFB ATM)

[Draken]

Err... Yeah. Human is not a type, it is a subtype, by becoming a Monstrous Humanoid he would stop being an humanoid and lose the characteristics of being an humanoid, but would retain the (Human) subtype (it exists since Races of Destiny) and all racial characteristics of a human, in addition to those of the Feral Template.

That's like saying you would lose your bonus feat for becoming a lich or a vampire. Or saying that a dragon would lose his breath weapon for becoming half-fiend or half-celestial.

Further, I am not sure if that is errata or just a balancing suggestion that is thrown around for the Feral Template, but I heard that the special abilities it grants are supposed to be bound to racial hit die, not counting class levels.

[Curmudgeon]

So, what you are saying, Curmudgeon, is a Feral Dwarf doesn't get his +2 con?

No, a Feral Dwarf gets STR +4, DEX –2, CON +2, INT –4 (minimum 2), WIS +2 -- these are all from the Feral template. The Dwarf traits (CON +2, CHA -2, slow bases speed, favored class Fighter, & c.) aren't used when the template changes the type. (Feral makes the favored class Barbarian.)

What the Feral Dwarf retains are the features of the Dwarf race: physical description, languages, alignment, and longevity.

[Swok]

"Special Qualities: Extra Feat at First Level, Four Extra Skill points at First Level, Extra Skill point per level"

These are only traits of a human. By applying the Feral template you become a monstrous humanoid instead of human, and lose these. The extra feat and skill points are human racial traits; see Player's Handbook, page 13. The Feral template replaces human traits with monstrous humanoid racial traits.

Actually, you become a human, that is a monstrous humanoid, and not a humanoid.

* Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

is replaced with

* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.

[Tanuki Tales]

No, a Feral Dwarf gets STR +4, DEX –2, CON +2, INT –4 (minimum 2), WIS +2 -- these are all from the Feral template. The Dwarf traits (CON +2, CHA -2, slow bases speed, favored class Fighter, & c.) aren't used when the template changes the type. (Feral makes the favored class Barbarian.)

What the Feral Dwarf retains are the features of the Dwarf race: physical description, languages, alignment, and longevity.

Dwarf and human aren't types, they're subtypes.

And you don't lose subtypes when changing main types generally unless the template says you do.

[Curmudgeon]

Dwarf and human aren't types, they're subtypes.

And you don't lose subtypes when changing main types generally unless the template says you do.

Right you are. Looks like I've been having trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

[BenTheJester]

Additionally, their abilities(extra feat, etc) are not granted from their subtype. They are what this specific race is.

Not all Humanoid (Human) have extra skill points and feats.
Not all Humanoid (Dwarf) have stonecunning
etc.

[Honeko]

Not all Humanoid (Human) have extra skill points and feats.

Yes. But does a Feral Human based off a base human from the PH have the extra feat and skill points?

[BenTheJester]

Yes. But does a Feral Human based off a base human from the PH have the extra feat and skill points?

Yes.

As I said, their abilities are NOT granted by their subtypes or type. They are what they are.

There is almost no template that would make them lose anything, except for the Dragonborn of Bahamut template, because it specifically says you lose everything but ability score adjustments

[Honeko]

Okay. So, then I am correct in assuming my final stats will look like this...

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Size and Type: Monstrous Humanoid/Large
Speed: 50' base land
Space/Reach: 10'
AC: +10 Natural Armor, -1 Size
Attacks: Gore, Two Claw Attacks
Attack Bonus: -1 Size
Grapple: +4
Damage: 1d8 Gore, 2d6 Claw
Special Attacks: Improved Grab
Special Qualities: Extra Feat at First Level, Four Extra Skill points at First Level, Extra Skill point per level, Scent, Darkvision 60', +2 Racial Bonus on Search, Spot and Listen Checks, +4 Bonus to escape Maze, Know North, Fast Healing 2
Feats: Track
Abilities: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -6 Int (minimum 3), +4 Wis
Level Adjustment: +2

Or Abilities like so...

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Abilities: +16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, -6 Int (minimum 3), +4 Wis

Anything else I missed, EXcluding Class/Level Dependent Benefits?

[Tyndmyr]

Right you are. Looks like I've been having trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

So....could we start with water orc instead of human? Say, if we wanted to see exactly how hard we could hit something?