Swash/Rogue/IB help 3.5

[LaughingRogue]

Alright so I have this build mostly made and it comes to:

Swashbuckler 11/Invisible Blade5/Rogue 2/Fighter 2

Things I'm not concerned about: "What happens when you run into things that are immune to Sneak Attack"

My response is this: There's an item in the MIC (deathstrike bracers(i think this is the name)) that will deal with this (not the greatest but it will do).

Also, I don't expect to be great against constructs, and Plants and oozes -- Just as Wizards don't expect to be great against things with ridiculous amounts of SR, and just as paladins don't expect to be as good against non-evil creatures. I have accepted that at some point my character will be useless in battle, and that I DON'T WANT a character that absolutely break the game (PA, Leap attack, Shock trooper(and yes i know they aren't applicable to me or my build)) <<<--- those kind of builds don't suit me in the slightest (I need no ego trip, because can use broken combination's in order to do more damage and ruin the fun for the entire table)

^^^ Sorry about the above, but i felt it needed to be said ^^^

It also needs to be stated that, I'm using Invisible Blade, as it is written in Dragon 303 (without the far shot, and point blank prereqs), because how i understand it, this is how the class was meant to be printed before there were adjustments made during the printing of Complete warrior.

Using things like ToB, the more broken Dragon Feats, and psionic anything won't fit with the game and the DM.

My build --- Human

1.Rogue 1 -- Two Weapon Fighting, Telling Blow, Sneak attack 1d6
2.Swashbuckler 1 -- Weapon Finesse
3.Swash 2 -- Weapon Focus (kukri), Grace +1
4.Swash 3 -- Insightful Strike
5.Rogue 2 -- evasion
6.Swash 4 -- Daring Outlaw, Dodge +1, 3d6 sneak attk
7.Fighter 1 -- Improved two-weapon fighting
8.Invisible Blade -Dagger SA , Unfettered Defense
9. IB 2--- Improved Critical (Kukri) (15-20), Bleeding Wound
10. IB 3 -- DSA (5d6), Uncanny Feint (move)
11. IB 4 -- Feint Mastery
12. IB 5 -- DSA (6d6), Uncanny Feint (free), Power Critical
13. Fighter 2 --Greater Two Weapon Fighting
14. Swash 5 -- Dodge +1, 7d6 Sneak
15 Swash 6 -- (FEAT???)
16. Swash 7 -- Acrobatic Charge, 8d6 Sneak
17. Swash 8 -- Dodge +2, Improved Flanking
18. Swash 9 -- Grace +2, 9d6 sneak (FEAT: ??????)
19. Swash 10 --
20. Swash 11-- 10d6 sneak

I need help for choosing those feats, and any other things you see would be great as well.


Sorry for the abrupt and brash beginnings to my post....any help would really be appreciated, thank you :-)

FYI: This character will be run for the Age or Worms Adventure Path, so if any of you have played it...telling me what you thought of it would be great (no spoilers please)

[Keld Denar]

No dice, you need 2d6 SA in order to qualify for Daring Outlaw, and you only have 1 at level 6 when you take it.

I highly recommend dumping a lot of SP into UMD. This will give you an extra dimension of capability for when SA Immunity rears its ugly head, and sniping at range with a Wand of Lesser Orb of Acid is pretty fun.

Have you considered adding in a little ToB? A splash of Swordsage would do wonders for ya!

[Gorbash]

Just as Wizards don't expect to be great against things with ridiculous amounts of SR

Ever heard of Conjuration school?

[LaughingRogue]

Ever heard of Conjuration school?

ZOMG111!!!!1eleven!!!111! THE CONJURATION SCHOOL *sigh*



now onto a post that actually helped

damn, how didn't i see that... and i can't just switch around fighter to level 6 and swash at level 7, because then i don't meet the prereqs for imp. two-weapon fighting....

ontop of that, adding another level of rogue to gain 2d6 sneak attack means i take multiclassing penalties (and i'd like to avoid those),

ok, now i need alot more help than i originally thought ---

So the general idea being,

Daring Outlaw, Telling Blow - Improved Critical (Kukri) 15-20 x2 (with SA) - Invisible Blade

Any suggestions



And yes, I've heard of a basic mechanic for a base class...thanks for the waste of a post



As for adding ToB, my DM won't allow anything that he considers too broken, and ToB is filled to the brim with broken material

[Smythen]

I would ad a lvl or two of mastethrower. And then get throwing and returning on those kukries. that aside.. just make sure to carry a few daggers/darts for ranged SA.

Enter invisible blade at lvl 6 to get that extra dice of SA.

[Keld Denar]

As for adding ToB, my DM won't allow anything that he considers too broken, and ToB is filled to the brim with broken material

Hurray for blanket generalizations and blind hatred! I'm guessing neither of you have even read the book and are basing this on things people have posted online? With the exception of like, 3 things, ToB is one of the most INTERNALLY balanced written. I really hope you aren't doing that though...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Honestly, I'd drop the IB. It requires a lot of crappy feats, and doesn't give you much that straight Swash would give you with IB. The feint ability is neat, but you can still only feint once per round. Thus, its still not something that gives consistant reliable full attack SA. Also, the +Int to AC is capped at 5 (one for each level), requires you to not wear armor, and when you consider a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt is ~2000g is also +5 AC, doesn't interfere with your Dex skills, and can be further enchanted with cool bonuses like Aporter or Death Ward, its really better to wear the armor. IB fails as a class, and loses WAY too much over straight Swash with DO.

If you drop IB, you'll need fewer feats, which means you can drop the 2 crappy fighter levels. This would even you out to a nice Rogue3/Swash17, or my preference, Rogue4/Swash16. Uncanny Dodge is useful, and there are a number of ACFs in the PHBII and CChamp that sub for Uncanny dodge if you don't want it. You don't lose any more BAB, since Rogue4 is +1 BAB, so all you would lose is ~2 HP, which is well worth it for the UD and +4 Skill Points.

Also, Telling Blow is kinda a trap. You only get SA applied once per attack, and if you are already in flanking position or already have your foe denied their dex, you already qualify for SA. Even with Imp Crit and a Kukiri, you are still only qualifying for SA on ~1/4 attacks. That means that until you have more than 4 attacks, its generally a better idea to just tumble around a foe to gain flanking and make 1 attack with SA than start swinging and praying for a crit. The only redeaming quality of Telling Blow is that it lets you qualify for SA in the few situations where you normally can't, such as when a foe has concealment, or is immune to flanking (but not SA), or is beyond 30' on a ranged attack. Not worth a feat, IMO. Also, without Craven (Champions of Ruin), or Shadow Blade (ToB), focusing on crits as a rogue is also kinda a trap, given that SA is not multiplied. If you do crit with say...a rapier, you'll do 4d6 instead of 3d6, for example. Insightful Strike would get multiplied, but that'll only be another +4-5 damage or so, and not as worth it. If you had Craven, though, you'd add your level to SA damage, and since its static, would get multiplied as 2x your level to damage. Thats a pretty decent spike in damage, and thus would warrent using Kukiri's and taking Imp Critical.

So...what else?

[Boci]

As for adding ToB, my DM won't allow anything that he considers too broken, and ToB is filled to the brim with broken material

No no, thats core. People get them mixed up all the time.

The invisible blade has an online version where the feat requirements are cut down (I think to only weapon finesse), ask yuor DM is you can use that. But really, if you don't want to use ToB, just going rogue 4 / swashbuckler 16 would be better. Feinting is too unreliable to rival flanking. Use gthe dungeonscape alternativle class feature to deal half SA against those normally immune and then you'll only suck against things that cannot be flanked. You'll want a anklet of translocation to teleport 10ft as a swift action if the monster you are flanking begins to shread you.

[Pluto]

Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark is the Natural Spell of Invisible Blades.

[Samb]

First thing about IB is this: does your DM know about the errta? If not then IB is a great option.

I'm not a fan of swashbuckler. Why would I lose all those skill points for just a few bonus BAB? Straight rogue seems better IMO and saves you the need to get daring outlaw. But this is your PC so feel free to build it anyway you want.

[Boci]

Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark is the Natural Spell of Invisible Blades.

You still need to feint however, and monsters will typically have more HD than CR, so soon the skill check will be outmached by any full BAB opponent, and thats assuming they have no ranks in sense motive. Addtionally, it only lasts until the beginning of the opponents next turn, so you may as well just flank.

I'm not a fan of swashbuckler. Why would I lose all those skill points for just a few bonus BAB? Straight rogue seems better IMO and saves you the need to get daring outlaw. But this is your PC so feel free to build it anyway you want.

Higher BAB, +2 hp per level and early bloomer class features (weapon finesse and insightful strike).

[Pluto]

You still need to feint however, and monsters will typically have more HD than CR, so soon the skill check will be outmached by any full BAB opponent, and thats assuming they have no ranks in sense motive.

And assuming you don't invest any resources to make your defining class feature work.
Skills are easy to boost.

Addtionally, it only lasts until the beginning of the opponents next turn, so you may as well just flank.

I'm not going to argue there, but I thought the feint was the only reason anyone ever took levels in IB.
Maybe I reed to recheck the book.

[Boci]

And assuming you don't invest any resources to make your defining class feature work.
Skills are easy to boost.

True, you can invest cash into having a greater chance of feinting (and thus draw cash away from other important areas such as gravestrike), or just flank. No investment needed, automatic success. +2 to hit versuses denied dex, the only disadvantage is that you have to be opposite the party's tank in most cases, but I still prefer it.

I'm not going to argue there, but I thought the feint was the only reason anyone ever took levels in IB.
Maybe I reed to recheck the book.

Full BAB + sneak attack was what got me interested. Plus its nice to be able to feint against those 1 in 50 opponets who cannot be flanked without spending 2 feats and gimping yourself.

[Soranar]

2 problems

1rst

The things you gain with invisible blade levels, compared to just more swashbuckler with daring outlaw, are marginal at best.

2nd

The feats you waste are not a marginal cost and neither is the feinting tactic. Feinting doesn't work often, and when it does, simply attacking normally can nearly equal the damage if you go the TWF route (since feint only allows 1 attack).

If you really want to go naked with 2 weapons, take 1 level of monk with kung-fu genius. You'll even be able to flurry if you use a kukri (with the right weapon school). You'll get unlimited Int to AC and it will only cost you 1 feat.

Personally I'd just stick with swashbuckler.

[LaughingRogue]

Ok so i'm thinking that Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 16 is better than the build that I previously had (with some convincing from those above)...

and i liked the look of the no armor 5'1 rogue taking things on ... but it doesn't seem feasible