Swift Hunter Build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One frien of my RL gaming group want's to make a swift hunter for our Eberron campaing and he asked for my help.

I came up with this build

Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 5
Ranger 4 (or 5 depending on the race)

He didn't specify a race so I am suggesting Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MM III or IV) but any other suggestion might help

The problem is that I am having difficulties concerning the third domain, the first two are knowledge and travel, both being traded for their respective devotions.

So what would be a good third domain, celerity is a strong candidate as also undeath for extra turning, since I this build won't have cleric spellcasting the spells doesn't matter too much.

Relevant houserules for building:
we roll 4d6b3 for stats
all books except setting specific ones ( eberron is allowed cause we are in eberron)
LA buy-off is allowed.
Don't know about multiclass XP penalities, none in the group have come to adress thur rule.

Thanks in advance

[Eldariel]

For race, Humans rock. Unbelievably much. Strongheart Halfling and Whisper Gnome are both decent too tho Strongheart Halfling really needs speed boosters (like Celerity-domain). Celerity, Time, Elf, Luck, Pride...there are tons of good domains. Pick one that feels right.

[Keld Denar]

Ohhhh, yea. Pride is a pretty awesome one. Rolling 1s sucks. This aleviates the problem a bit. Destiny is also pretty neat. It beats Luck hands down, as you can also give it to a nearby ally.

[Eldariel]

Ohhhh, yea. Pride is a pretty awesome one. Rolling 1s sucks. This aleviates the problem a bit. Destiny is also pretty neat. It beats Luck hands down, as you can also give it to a nearby ally.

On the other hand, Luck is a free action and can reroll anything (Destiny can't touch any percentile rolls, non-standard checks and such but Luck literally can reroll anything).

[Curmudgeon]

Scout 5 is a pretty odd choice here. You'll lose another point of BAB over progressing Ranger, and will pick up evasion, which Rangers get at level 9 anyway. I'd suggest sticking to just 3 levels of Scout (the minimum for Swift Hunter).

You're going to be screwed on multiclass XP penalties as soon as you pick up that level of Cloistered Cleric. If you're not going to be progressing to higher levels, make that your last level.

[lsfreak]

The point of Scout 5 is usually to pick up both evasion and the ACF for reflecting ranged touch spells that miss (which is relatively often, due to skirmish + high dex).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Scout 5 is a pretty odd choice here. You'll lose another point of BAB over progressing Ranger, and will pick up evasion, which Rangers get at level 9 anyway. I'd suggest sticking to just 3 levels of Scout (the minimum for Swift Hunter).

You're going to be screwed on multiclass XP penalties as soon as you pick up that level of Cloistered Cleric. If you're not going to be progressing to higher levels, make that your last level.

You are right about scout, since I am working AFB I didn't remember the minimum scout level for Swift hunter, I thought it was 5 thanks for the advice.
and as for the XP penalties I am not sure if we are using them nobody on the table has make characters that might adress the rule. ( a hlaf elf ranger-cleric going into a divine version of Arcane archer, a cat folk Pyrokinetist, an elan psion, and me a shifter rouge)

....Celerity, Time, Elf, Luck, Pride...there are tons of good domains. Pick one that feels right.

Celerity is the speed bonus righr?
Time don't remember
Elf Point Blank shot or another archery related feat right? I am not sure on this one cause I am not sure on which type (melee or archery) swift hunter he wants to be, plus I don't think my DM will let him have that domain if he is not an elf or half elf.
Luck: reroll... might be good
Pride another reroll.

[Eldariel]

Celerity is the speed bonus righr?

+10ft speed in light armor, yes.

Time don't remember

Improved Initiative.

Elf Point Blank shot or another archery related feat right? I am not sure on this one cause I am not sure on which type (melee or archery) swift hunter he wants to be, plus I don't think my DM will let him have that domain if he is not an elf or half elf.

PBS.

Luck: reroll... might be good

Very useful.

Pride another reroll.

Reroll all 1s; means a lot if you're rolling multiple saves.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Pride sounds the most useful for this character, (The player is famous in oir table for botching really important rolls, like a dissintigrate, a bluff check to avoid execution, another bluff check that sent one of my characters into prison) so re-rolling 1's may be the best option.

Also I seem to recall reading somewhere in the forum that Viletooth lizardfolf from Dragon magic is a good option and IIRC it can be aplied to Poison Dusk Lizardfol too, can anybody please explain how it is a good option?

[Pluto]

Also I seem to recall reading somewhere in the forum that Viletooth lizardfolf from Dragon magic is a good option and IIRC it can be aplied to Poison Dusk Lizardfol too, can anybody please explain how it is a good option?

It doesn't apply to Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, by RAW, but you might as well rule that it does.

I wouldn't use it if I were making this character. The strength hit means -1 damage to all attacks in a round. -1 to attack, too, if he's using a strength-based build.

It's not much, but it will add up higher than the extra 1d6 energy damage per round. (And that's the only part of the race that would affect the character, unless this is a low-magic sea-faring game.)

The only noticeable change this race gives is the Dragonblood Subtype, which can be useful in overcoming Precision Damage immunities. But this character already has Swift Hunter for that.

[Sinfire Titan]

Might I suggest going Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Prestige Ranger 15? Domains recommended are: Knowledge, Travel, and Plant.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Might I suggest going Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Prestige Ranger 15? Domains recommended are: Knowledge, Travel, and Plant.

Ok I see where this go, but Plant domain? I don't see why
Also animal domain gives the pre req of being able to cast calm animals, also IIRC the animal devotion feat is quite good.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ok I see where this go, but Plant domain? I don't see why
Also animal domain gives the pre req of being able to cast calm animals, also IIRC the animal devotion feat is quite good.

Plants or Animals works for PrC Ranger, but you can't get the Devotion Feat using CC's option because you lose access to the domain (thus losing the entry requirements for PrC Ranger).

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you trade a domain for devotion do you also loose the granted spells? I alwas thought you only lost the granted power and kept the spells... I need to recheck the rules on trading for devotions.

Also from the srd

Requirements

To qualify to become a prestige ranger, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus
+4.
Skills

Knowledge (nature) 2 ranks, Survival 4 ranks.
Feats

Endurance, Track, and either Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting.
Spellcasting

Must be able to cast calm animals as a divine spell.

Where does it says that you can substitute calm animals for control plants? or did I missunderstood you?

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Damn good call on the PrC ranger. I think I'll borrow that foe one of my builds

Hmm... How is Cloistered cleric-1/ scout-4 getting the Required 4 bab?

[Curmudgeon]

If you trade a domain for devotion do you also loose the granted spells?

You trade everything.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You trade everything.

Oh well, in the case of build #1 it doesn't matter, but on Sinfire Titan's build, I'll guess I'll have to get animal devotion as a normal feat (that way you still keep spells right?)

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh well, in the case of build #1 it doesn't matter, but on Sinfire Titan's build, I'll guess I'll have to get animal devotion as a normal feat (that way you still keep spells right?)

I think so, but again, how is it getting +4 BAB?

Scout-4=3 BAB. and Cloistered Cleric=0. If you can't get in at level 6, you have to wait for 9th level to take swift hunter. Not a good thing


Regular cleric-1 Scout-4 could do it with partial BaB rules (or is it called fractal BaB?), but that is just one more alt rule you need to bank on getting.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think so, but again, how is it getting +4 BAB?

Scout-4=3 BAB. and Cloistered Cleric=0. If you can't get in at level 6, you have to wait for 9th level to take swift hunter. Not a good thing

Not sure, but maybe using fractional bab rules? (have to check the rules and possibly my math)

[Curmudgeon]

Not sure, but maybe using fractional bab rules?

Nope. Scout is 3/4, so thats 3.0. Cloistered Cleric is 1/2, so that's 0.5. You're still 0.5 BAB short of the minimum requirement.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Nope. Scout is 3/4, so thats 3.0. Cloistered Cleric is 1/2, so that's 0.5. You're still 0.5 BAB short of the minimum requirement.

Oh well a pity, either way that sounds as an useful build in a low-optimization game, (Half casting progression)... I might suggest it.

also for this particular character it doesn't matter if he has to take swift hunter at level 9 the starting ECL in this campaing is 10 so no biggie.

[Vizzerdrix]

Nope. Scout is 3/4, so thats 3.0. Cloistered Cleric is 1/2, so that's 0.5. You're still 0.5 BAB short of the minimum requirement.

Ya that's why I say normal cleric. Normal is.5 I think. Still damn solid build idea though.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ok Scout 4/CC 2. You also get extra Knowledge skill ranks, improving Knowledge Devotion (which will somewhat make up for lack of Swift Hunter), and my bad about the Plant domain.

[Curmudgeon]

Ya that's why I say normal cleric. Normal is.5 I think.

Normal Cleric is 3/4, so Scout 4 (3.0 BAB) + Cleric 1 (0.75 BAB) still doesn't get you there; 3.75 still rounds down to 3.

Rounding Fractions

In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.

[Coidzor]

Scout3/Fighter1/Cleric1, then?

Scout 3 is the minimum for swift hunter, and the fighter dip will get an extra feat for whichever tree one is heading for...

and if I'm remembering correctly, one wants to stop scout and ranger progression on odd levels rather than even levels for a swift hunter.

No, not unless the fractional BAB would add up for it to work...

Hmm... In terms of the max levels, one doesn't gain all that much by taking all 15 levels in ranger unless one has 4 levels of scout in order to get maximum skirmish damage from functional scout 19. Otherwise, the scout levels will allow the last animal companion to be grabbed from prestige ranger 12 (if it works, which is something pretty major and central to the concept working at all), allowing one to maximize cleric casting by stopping at either ranger 12 or 14 (depending upon how much one desired hide in plain sight and bab and such)

Then again, prestige ranger doesn't get evasion... Hmm.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just a question, is using Martial study (shadow hand manouber x) and then gaining Martial Stance (Shadow Hand Stance Child of shadows) and then getting shadow blade. a worthwile option? I

t cost three feats so it may not be optimal but I think it makes any swift hunter build a little more SAD and on the plus side you WILL get concealment from the stance every round.
You may need to get some shadow hands weapons or my personal favorite Aptitude weapons.

[Darrin]

Just a question, is using Martial study (shadow hand manouber x) and then gaining Martial Stance (Shadow Hand Stance Child of shadows) and then getting shadow blade. a worthwile option? It cost three feats so it may not be optimal but I think it makes any swift hunter build a little more SAD and on the plus side you WILL get concealment from the stance every round.
You may need to get some shadow hands weapons or my personal favorite Aptitude weapons.

You can cut down the number of feats to 2 if you use the Shadow Hand variant of the Crown of White Ravens (novice, 3000 GP). This gives you a Shadow Hand maneuver known, so you can take Martial Stance without Martial Study. (Maneuvers and stances don't care if you lose their prereqs, you still keep them.)

As far as stances go, I prefer Assassin's Stance, particularly if it's a TWF build, which is more likely to get you more bonus damage. It also allows you to pick up Craven after you pick up Shadow Blade. Getting a high enough IL can be tricky without a dip into Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade, otherwise you have to wait until ECL 12 when IL = 6.0.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You can cut down the number of feats to 2 if you use the Shadow Hand variant of the Crown of White Ravens (novice, 3000 GP). This gives you a Shadow Hand maneuver known, so you can take Martial Stance without Martial Study. 1 (Maneuvers and stances don't care if you lose their prereqs, you still keep them.)

As far as stances go, I prefer 2 Assassin's Stance, particularly if it's a TWF build, which is more likely to get you more bonus damage. It also allows you to pick up 3 Craven after you pick up Shadow Blade. Getting a high enough IL can be tricky without a dip into Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade, otherwise you have to wait until ECL 12 when IL = 6.0.

1: Could you please show me the ruling? I want to show that to my DM so I can benefit from it

2: Great option and I love that stance (I usally plan assassin-y characters) but I think Child of shadows synergize better with a swift hunter build, while assassin's stance is great for sneak attackers; child of shadows reward you if you move and you WILL move to maximise skirikish.


3: IIRC in some book (possibly Complete Scoundrel) it ruled that skirimish or sudden strike let you quallify for feats or prestige classes that needed SA, so if craven requires SA you can quallify using Skirimish.

Thanks for the advice thought

[Pluto]

3: IIRC in some book (possibly Complete Scoundrel) it ruled that skirimish or sudden strike let you quallify for feats or prestige classes that needed SA, so if craven requires SA you can quallify using Skirimish.

Complete Adventurer says that Sudden Strike counts and conspicuously neglects to say the same for Skirmish.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Complete Adventurer says that Sudden Strike counts and conspicuously neglects to say the same for Skirmish.

Damn...... well maybe it could be reasonable to ask for skirimish to also count as SA for prerequisites.