Transmute PC to Dragon (3.5)

[Jarrick]

Here's a challenge. I've got a player who wants to turn his 18th level abjurant champion elf into a Fang Dragon (Draconomicon). He wants to keep all his spellcasting and class abilities and gain all the trappings of being a dragon including retroactive HD increase (Similar to the way a newly undead char changes existing HD to d12s). The dragon's physical ability scores will replace his own. (Am I insane for allowing this?)

The question before the panel is this: What should his age category/size be, and how should we handle advancement reletive to size category? Furthermore, should this impose some kind of level adjustment? We've come up with a ritual involving 3 wish spells and a side quest to get it, but still...

[Bibliomancer]

It sounds like a very bad idea. The ECL of a CR 8 dragon tends to approach epic, and so he'd either have an absurdly high spellcasting ability for his age category or just be too high a level for the rest of the campaign.

If he really wants to do this, he'll have to give up around half of his spellcasting, and even then he comes out ahead.

(In a side note, if he's set on this, don't tell him about the spellcasting reduction. He should be able to figure it out given how many HPs and ability scores increases he'll get.)

Just make him a standard HD 18 Fang Dragon, if you don't mind him being slightly very overpowered. If you do this, under no circumstances allow him to keep all of his spellcasting: give him spellcasting as normal of a dragon of that age.

If you wanted to be balanced, make him a HD 12 Fang Dragon (LA +6 is reasonable for a Dragon) and keep spellcasting as normal for that age category dragon. Let his apply his ability scores modified by the dragon's racial ones, though (thus, if he started with 15 Charisma and the Dragon gets 18 charisma, his new score would be 23).

On a side note, what do the other members of the campaign think of this?

[Jarrick]

On a side note, what do the other members of the campaign think of this?

They think I'm being a jerk for wanting to nerf this and are enjoying the sidequest. Our wizard is providing the wish spells, killing his own XP for GP.

Though in all honesty it doesn't help my case when I'm playing a ghost dread necromancer who posesses the bodies of his intellegent minions.

Honestly with his spell selection (All Freakin Buffs) the dragon's stuff seems almost negligable...

Maybe I should just tell him "no".

[Bibliomancer]

They think I'm being a jerk for wanting to nerf this and are enjoying the sidequest. Our wizard is providing the wish spells, killing his own XP for GP.

Wait, the wizard is being paid to do this?

Wait, the wizard is swapping experience points for gold?

Well, there's not much you can do in that situation (besides elevate his character to NPC status when it inevitably becomes too powerful).

Heh: you could make him a wyrmling with his current class level -2 or 3. That would be a boost in power, but certainly not game-breaking (and his reaction would be rather interesting to see).

[Thrawn183]

I'm sensing an awesome wish perversion coming on here.... yeah!

Ok, go with the whole turning into a fang dragon wyrmling idea. Problem? He has some rather overbearing parents. This could make for some awesome... plot/encounters/rp'ing.... well, everything really.

[deuxhero]

He's got 9th level spells and needs a DM fiat to become a dragon? Let him, if he can't figure out how to do it on his own (Polymorph any object->Spellscale (or any humanoid dragon)->PaO into the dragon of choice.), I don't think he will be breaking many campagins.


Making his race Steel Dragon Wyrmling Loredrake is also an option, coming close to full casting progression (sorc though) and they make great gishs.

[Zaq]

(In a side note, if he's set on this, don't tell him about the spellcasting reduction. He should be able to figure it out given how many HPs and ability scores increases he'll get.)

I have nothing to add to the situation in general, but I will add my firm opinion that an upfront denial is always better than a stealth nerf. If you're going to nerf it, nerf it, but never make it a surprise.

[Otodetu]

object->Spellscale (or any humanoid dragon)->PaO into the dragon of choice.)

I am quite sure polymorph any object does not work like that, it has a duration of permanent, not instantaneous.

to op:
I would just say no really, but I guess it depends ALOT on your game, and no details about the champaign does not help.

If it is a standard dnd session then just say no, and let him temporary go dragon with shape-change or something.

[Optimystik]

I am quite sure polymorph any object does not work like that, it has a duration of permanent, not instantaneous.

Is there a functional difference? He'll still go to bed a dragon and wake up a dragon, and still have his powers.

Elf -> Spellscale (Permanent)
Spellscale -> Dragon (Permanent.)

The only difference between permanent and instantaneous is that the former is dispellable/reversible.

[taltamir]

does he realize that his effective character level will be so high he would not be gaining XP for a long long time (aka, until the rest of the party catches up)

the problem with dragons is that they utterly suck. They are only scary because you have to fight them in low levels. They are high LA, high racial HD creatures.
What would you rather play, a 10HD +7 ECL dragon that casts a 3rd level sorcerer and fights as a 10HD (d12), 10 BAB monster with no feats and optimzations.
or a 17th level wizard, or a 17th level fighter who has 17HD (d10), BAB 17, 9 bonus fighter feats, and much greater overall power?

now, if he just wishes for it and it happens, and he goes from a level 17 wizard to a level 17 wizard + 10HD +7 LA = ECL 34, then yes, he got more powerful... but he isn't getting XP until he starts killing CR25 monsters, and it will be pitiful XP until about CR30+ monsters. So the rest of the party will leave him behind.

I think you should let him, you should also work with him to make it not suck so damn hard. because what he is asking for is a huge NERF to himself, not a boost to his power.

including retroactive HD increase (Similar to the way a newly undead char changes existing HD to d12s)

um, thats not how racial HD works.
undead EXCHANGE existing HD for D12 undead HD.
Racial HD is in ADDITION to your class HD, unless you have only 1 racial HD, in which case it is replaced by your first class HD.

so a human has 1HD, at level 1 he replaces that 1 human HD with 1 class HD of his class of choice.
A dragon of type X with 10 racial HD and 17 levels of wizard will have 10 D12 racial HD + 17 d4 class HD, total HD of 27.

[Milskidasith]

To the person who said "make him a wyrmling with two or three lost spellcasting levels" you're wrong on that being a power increase. That loses you ninth level spells if you are a spontaneous caster. Ninth level spells allow you to *become* a dragon. There's no point to losing access to the spells that allow you to permanently become a dragon to become a weaker version of said dragon. Especially combined with your view on doing it without telling him he'd lose spellcasting levels, and you'd just be ruining your players fun, making him less optimal, and lying to him at the same time.

[faceroll]

Why isn't he just using shapechange?

[taltamir]

from draconomicon:

fang dragon LA:
Wyrmling +3
very young +4
young +5
juvenile +5
others — (this means older ones are not valid PCs by raw, requires houseruling and even higher LA to allow into play)

Wyrmling, size: T HP: 3d12+3 (22) STR:11 DEX:10 CON: 13 INT:8 WIS:13 CHA:8 BAB/Grapple: +3/–5, Attack:5 Fort:4 Ref:3 Will:4 Breath Weapon: 1d2 (DC 10) Frightful presence: -

So... what is the end result?
he becomes a wyrmling fang dragon. He becomes tiny, he gains 3d12 HD and +3 LA, going from level 18 to level 24 character. His racial stat bonuses change from whatever he had to STR +1, Con +3, Int -2, Wis +3, and Cha -2. He gains 3 BAB, his total grapple goes down by 5 (-8 due to size, +3 due to bab increase), he gains 4 fort, 3 ref, and 4 will saves (racial), he gains the "breath weapon" (actually a bite attack) which allows him to do 1d2 con damage on a DC10 fort save failure.
His speed becomes 60 ft., fly 90 ft. (average)
he gets +2 nat armor, he gains the trip ability, the sound imitation ability, and can now cast at will detect magic and read magic.

This is an utterly terrible transformation and he has become weaker in every conceiveable manner.
From now on when calculating XP, treat him as 6 levels higher then the party (now he is 24 and they are 18)

BTW, because you are not totally EVIL, make him a loredrake variant.. he becomes a "loredrake fang dragon". Loredrakes gain "wizard" casting instead of "socerer" casting. (oh, and they both have access to spells from wizard/sorcerer AND cleric list... the only advantage dragons have, but not enough to compensate for their suck). IIRC there is some cost to being a loredrake, I don't remember what exactly... wait... is it called loredrake or spell hoarding? bah, whatever. "wizard dragon" is the key.

[faceroll]

I would allow him to spend the minimum xp required to buy off 3 LA, so that he only gains the 3 HD (but presumably loses a level or two). Then he picks up the Loredrake, Riddled & Spellhoarding (DR313) templates, and catches up just fine with +2 wizard levels of casting and +6 int from templates.

[taltamir]

I would allow him to spend the minimum xp required to buy off 3 LA, so that he only gains the 3 HD (but presumably loses a level or two). Then he picks up the Loredrake, Riddled & Spellhoarding (DR313) templates, and catches up just fine with +2 wizard levels of casting and +6 int from templates.

this is an interesting approach. This could be used to make this a valid approach instead of total character suicide to become a dragon.
Dragons are monsters for a reason, they are far too weak to be a real player character as written!

[Jarrick]

I thought the idea was pretty far fetched. I'll run some of the ideas here by him to see what he thinks.

I didn't mention campaign details because I didn't think they were relevent but, Eberron, evil-tolerant party operating out of stormreach. Party consists of the aforementioned elf, An elf wizard (Uttercold/metamage type), an elan psion (Seer), and my char, a human (Karrnathian) ghost dread necromancer (save or die/suck) and mine and the wizard's conjured-killed-animated minions from other planes, some of which could kill our entire party, or at least half of us.

We alternate DMing. One person DMs then hands it off once the adventure is over. We vote on things like this dragon issue. I got outvoted this time. I thought it would be kind of overpowered and I wanted to make sure it was done right, if at all. You've all given me some interesting food for thought. Thanks. Keep the advice coming if there's anything more to add, I'm still open to suggestions.

[Starbuck_II]

Here's a challenge. I've got a player who wants to turn his 18th level abjurant champion elf into a Fang Dragon (Draconomicon). He wants to keep all his spellcasting and class abilities and gain all the trappings of being a dragon including retroactive HD increase (Similar to the way a newly undead char changes existing HD to d12s). The dragon's physical ability scores will replace his own. (Am I insane for allowing this?)

The question before the panel is this: What should his age category/size be, and how should we handle advancement reletive to size category? Furthermore, should this impose some kind of level adjustment? We've come up with a ritual involving 3 wish spells and a side quest to get it, but still...

1/2 Dragon?

Ooh, Pathfinder Dragon Deciple lets you become a dragon x times/day.

[Jarrick]

Update:
I've talked to him and he's being rather stubborn about this, claiming to have found a loophole in the description of wish that would allow him to do this, but there are so many things wrong with it that It hurts to think about.

His logic:
Wish 1: duplicate shapechange (Can't due to shapechange being 9th level spell, plus why not just use the spell shapechange?)
Wish 2: Make the spell permanent (IE Not dispellable *Red flag*)
Wish 3: Regain his own supernatural abilities lost by shapechange. (Umm, I think there's an epic seed for gaining supernatural abilities)

There will be no discouraging him from this nonsense as he's quite proud of himself, and I'm the only one in my group who knows enough about the rules to know why this won't work.

So, anyone in the Bedford, Indiana area looking for a proficient player?

[Starbuck_II]

Wish 2: Make the spell permanent (IE Not dispellable *Red flag*)

He meants instantaneous because permanent is dispellable.

[Glimbur]

Wish 2: Make the spell permanent (IE Not dispellable *Red flag*)

Funny story: permanent spells can be dispelled or suppressed in an AMF. It's Instantaneous spells that really last forever.

There are rituals in Savage Species for changing types, but I don't recall any that turn you into a dragon. Wish is a general catch-all spell, but there should be limits on character power.

[Jarrick]

Yeah, I meant permanent as in everlasting, but yes, mechanically speaking he wants an instantaneous duration.

[taltamir]

did he say something about it being a nerf not a buff?
is he going to use loredrake, spellwraught, and spellhoarding templates to mitigate said debuffs?
what age does he expect to be?

[Claudius Maximus]

Savage Species has rules for using Wish to become a Dragon permanently like this. IIRC, it involves a percentile roll for each Su and Ex ability to see if he gets it, based off of a spellcraft check. I suppose further uses of the spell can reroll them and increase the chances of success.

[Jarrick]

He's said that he wants to be large, based on his hit dice. He wants to be considered an "Adult" fang dragon. And no, none of those variants were mentioned by him or me.

I didn't come out and say it in the OP, but I'm trying to nerf this disaster before he overpowers himself so badly that the rest of us become useless by comparison. His logic really makes my brain static-y, how can I fix this?

[taltamir]

actually, my point was that he does not overpower himself, he ruins his character forever. He will forever suck at being a wizard.

adult is not a legit build, juvinile (which is also large) is the highest legit build. older ones require higher LA.

even if he got an adult with the juvinile LA of +5, he goes from wizard 18 to wizard 18/dragon 18/LA+5+X
so his total effective level is 41+x for XP gain.
However! his 18 dragon HD give him crap. he gains +3 effective sorcerer levels (making him cast as a wizard 18/sorcerer 3), he gains a bunch of useless hitpoints and saves, 17 natural armor, and a laundry list of bad abilities.

in the very short term it will be a boon, but pretty soon the rest of you are slinging epic spells around, while he isn't gaining XP or levels.

He would be better off wishing for 18 levels of fighter to be a wizar 18/fighter 18, which would still be crippling. Since the other casters are gonna pass him in a snap.

I am also very very weary of letting someone just WISH for something that increases their ECL. if he wants to be a dragon he should be reincarnated as a newborn wyrmling.

BTW... once he proves it can be done, everyone else is probably going to ascend into something... the others would be choosing good creatures like solars and balors... and will probably choose things that synnergize well

[Jarrick]

I should have mentioned. He's a sorcerer/fighter/abjurant champion. All his spells exist to make him a better melee fighter, and he is a very capable melee fighter given an opportunity to buff himself (60+ AC, hideous bonuses to hit, etc. and dispelling them is hard thanks to abjurant champion). He wants to keep all his class stuff and treat his class HD as dragon HD (Change to d12s), but not gain the extra dragon racial hit dice. So- everything he has now, plus everything a dragon of his HD would have too. That sound underpowered?

[taltamir]

I should have mentioned. He's a sorcerer/fighter/abjurant champion. All his spells exist to make him a better melee fighter, and he is a very capable melee fighter given an opportunity to buff himself (60+ AC, hideous bonuses to hit, etc. and dispelling them is hard thanks to abjurant champion). He wants to keep all his class stuff and treat his class HD as dragon HD (Change to d12s), but not gain the extra dragon racial hit dice. So- everything he has now, plus everything a dragon of his HD would have too. That sound underpowered?

I thought he was a wizard 18... also, he wants WHAT?
the notion that his "class" HD will suddenly become d12s while he doesn't actually gain sucky "racial" HD is ridiculous. he doesn't want to become a dragon, he wants to become some custom... thing... that breaks a whole lot of rules

He is asking for a whole lot of houseruling to be made in his favor. to result in a totally illegal character meant to be overpowering. (whether it is actually depends on how min maxed the rest of you are)..
oh, also, he is trying to wish for free levels.

his wishes SHOULD result in him writing up a character as a dragon, with a total ECL equal to that of the party. (technically party -15000XP for the wishes, but I am trying to be nice). from where he will be using monster progression (as in the savage species) to further progress.
If he wants to increase his dragon, he must "level up" as a dragon. You can explain his unnaturally fast "growth" as part of the spell... that is... when he wishes to become a dragon he replaces some of his class levels with a wyrmling dragon, as he levels up, his dragon "ages" rapidly (keeping the same ECL as the party) as the spell "completes" (the wish wasn't able to just transform him into an adult dragon, but it can transform him into a newborn dragon who can grow rapidly)

[Jarrick]

Yes, thank you. Can you believe that the rest of my group sees no problem with this?

P.S. The wizard was a different elf.

[PhoenixRivers]

actually, my point was that he does not overpower himself, he ruins his character forever. He will forever suck at being a wizard.

adult is not a legit build, juvinile (which is also large) is the highest legit build. older ones require higher LA.

Not necessarily true. If he gets a high HD dragon type. One feat change wish later, and he has epic spells at level 17.

It's breakable, if allowed.

Heck, a far enough back reformation, and he can get a massive spellcraft as well.

[Runestar]

I suppose he could in theory find some way of replicating/accessing mind switch to change bodies with a fang dragon of the appropriate age category.

Anything is possible by RAW given enough splatbooks.