[4e] What is The Attrition Party?

[Gralamin]

So, an interesting question has come up on the IRC recently. Given an endless encounter, in which there is at no single time more enemies then needed for a level equivalent encounter, which party would last the longest while still defeating enemies?

Personally, I'd try a party of

Cleric Multiclass Artificer (For certain dailies)
Psion
Vestige Warlock
Fey Warlock
Paladin

Since each is very durable in their own right, and brings much of value to the team.

If level matters, I'd say 5, 15, and 25 are good marks. If terrain matters, assume there is enough room for all combatants to maneuver, without an endless amount (So say, a 20 x 20 room).

What does the playground think?

Important rules clarifications
Post 3
Post 37

[Skrizzy]

Well, this gets more into it, what defenses are the enemies attacking? Is it the same composition that always spawns, is it the same enemy period (such as a bunch of agent smith's), the terrain makes a difference, is there anything that can give cover? What magic items are they allowed?

I want to answer your question, but I need to know more about the specifics of the fight to tell you more.

[Gralamin]

Well, this gets more into it, what defenses are the enemies attacking?

Varies.

Is it the same composition that always spawns, is it the same enemy period (such as a bunch of agent smith's),

Different, depending.

the terrain makes a difference, is there anything that can give cover?

There are things that give cover, but not Superior cover.

What magic items are they allowed?

Standard

I want to answer your question, but I need to know more about the specifics of the fight to tell you more.

I thought a lot of these would be granted.

[Swordgleam]

Shaman, because leader with Con as a key stat seems like "healing surges for everyone!"
Earthstrength Warden as the most Con-based defender
Cleric, because how can that go wrong?
Paladin for defender + healing
Infernal warlock for someone who can deal lots of damage but still has high Con

[Oracle_Hunter]

Barbarians.

5 Rageborn Barbarians each with Silver Phoenix Rage (LV 5 Daily) - Regen 3, a free Surge when you hit 0 HP, and At Wills that give them 5+CON THP per hit.

Those dudes will be there all day

EDIT: I guess you could swap in a Lazor Cleric with Astral Seal (LV 1 At-Will) if you want to get even more Healing

Oh, and make them all Goliaths with Hide Armor Expertise. That's, what, AC 17+Mods?

At 15, take Goliath Battlearagers MC Barbarian to get Silver Phoenix Rage and Hide Armor Expertise. Because you can never have too much THP.

[Altima]

Don't forget longtooth shifters, who can have regen that lasts the whole encounter once they're bloodied.

[Tiki Snakes]

Barbarians.

5 Rageborn Barbarians each with Silver Phoenix Rage (LV 5 Daily) - Regen 3, a free Surge when you hit 0 HP, and At Wills that give them 5+CON THP per hit.

Those dudes will be there all day

Good point, as it's one endless encounter, the rage never ends.

(Or should that be; THE RAGE NEVER ENDS!)

[Swordgleam]

Because you can never have too much THP.

Doesn't THP not stack?

[Tengu_temp]

5 Greatbow-using Elven Rangers, with feats and equipment focusing on increasing range and movement speed. At the very minimum everyone has movement speed 8 - that means standard enemies, with movement speed 6, close in at a pace of 4 squares/round (more if they run, but then you get combat advantage and you can take them down faster) as long as you keep shooting and retreating. Most enemies will be dead before they even have a chance to reach you.

[herrhauptmann]

Doesn't THP not stack?

Geh! Double negatives!
Temp hitpoints are not supposed to stack. They just overlap. (You have 5 THP, get hit for 2 by a minion now you've got 3THP, then get 5 more THP. You've now got a total of 5 THP) There might be a power which was accidentally phrased to allow Temp Hitpoints to stack, but I don't know of one.

[sonofzeal]

Geh! Double negatives!

Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, and indeed occasionally preferable, for certain situations like this one. They only become improper when used for emphasis, such as "I haven't never heard anything like that before". Overzealous english teachers have managed to obscure this fairly self-evident point with excessive condemnations of all double negatives, despite the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary, among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

[Asbestos]

Don't forget longtooth shifters, who can have regen that lasts the whole encounter once they're bloodied.

Very good point. Also, not only does Rage never end, but Warden dailies don't either (and neither does any 'until end of the encounter' power).

Encounter powers would be mostly meaningless in this endless encounter though, except for helping get through the first 1 or 2 'encounters' quicker. Ideal dailies would be the ones that grant bonuses to the PCs, but not specific bonuses vs specific enemies.

[DarknessLord]

Good point, as it's one endless encounter, the rage never ends.

(Or should that be; THE RAGE NEVER ENDS!)

Don't things that last until the end of the encounter only last 5 minutes, like even if you are still in combat, too lazy to look it up now so I'm not 100% sure.

[Gralamin]

Don't things that last until the end of the encounter only last 5 minutes, like even if you are still in combat, too lazy to look it up now so I'm not 100% sure.

You are correct

Until the end of the Encounter: the effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

Dailies end.

[herrhauptmann]

Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, .... among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

I know they're allowed, I just hate reading double and triple negatives. If I'm skimming, a double negative is sure to trip me up.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll just note that a substantial buff/effect that affects 50 combat rounds is going to be the best choice of a daily power even if combat goes on for another 50 endless, grinding rounds.

[CTLC]

Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, and indeed occasionally preferable, for certain situations like this one. They only become improper when used for emphasis, such as "I haven't never heard anything like that before". Overzealous english teachers have managed to obscure this fairly self-evident point with excessive condemnations of all double negatives, despite the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary, among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

this is now my favorite post of all time.

[rayne_dragon]

If I'm correct in presuming sustained powers aren't subject to the abitrary 5 minute limit then this is my strategy for the level 15 mark (because it can't be done before late heroic and I'm sure at epic better options are possible, while the enemies more likely to be able to cope with it)

Four wizards and a leader. The wizards can set up a huge barrier with wall of fire (enough to surround the party with two squares of fire in all directions, more it they can make a stand in the corner) and thunderwave anything that gets inside the wall back through it. The leader is there to heal the wizards when anything is lucky enough to get a hit in (which should be very seldom since the wizards should be at least partially optmized for defence on top of being very difficult to get to) and should have some sort of at-will push as well.

[herrhauptmann]

Four wizards and a leader. The wizards can set up a huge barrier with wall of fire (enough to surround the party with two squares of fire in all directions, more it they can make a stand in the corner) and thunderwave anything that gets inside the wall back through it. The leader is there to heal the wizards when anything is lucky enough to get a hit in (which should be very seldom since the wizards should be at least partially optmized for defence on top of being very difficult to get to) and should have some sort of at-will push as well.

What about enemies with powers that cause a slide, push, pull, or can just teleport into the middle of the formation?
At best, your party of 5, can take up a block of 2x3, with one square still open. If they're really foolish, it's a 3x3 square, with 4 squares open.

[term1nally s1ck]

The 5 minute rule is the break after the encounter required for the effects to end. If you avoid being attacked or attacking for 5 minutes, any effect that ends at the end of the encounter ends.

[rayne_dragon]

What about enemies with powers that cause a slide, push, pull, or can just teleport into the middle of the formation?
At best, your party of 5, can take up a block of 2x3, with one square still open. If they're really foolish, it's a 3x3 square, with 4 squares open.

There is no reason that the walls have to form a square, you can arrange it so that the wall is still adjacent to every square but the ones the party occupies. Or one of the characters can multiclass shaman for a spirit companion to fill the gap. Readied actions (hopefully) take care of enemies being pushed or slid inside the wall so it is improbable that anything can get inside the wall and attack on the same turn and those that could are unlikely to be able to use an attack that could move the party. However, you do make a good point for when probability allows that eventuallity. To make it ideal, I think it would need to add some powers/items that reduce forced movement.

I believe I mentioned that ideally this would be in a corner of the room, so two wizards can thunderwave out on their turns and two can have thunderwave as readied actions making it extremely unapproachable. It can also free up a wizard or two from wall duty, letting them be able to do something else like make difficult terrain or visions of avarice and to be able to patch up the wall if somebody decides to use Dispel Magic.

[Orzel]

I'm also in the
"Cleric/Warlock/Rageblood Barbarian/Paladin/human wizard" group.

Especially if you believe dailies and encounters end 5 minutes after the fighting does.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What about enemies with powers that cause a slide, push, pull, or can just teleport into the middle of the formation?
At best, your party of 5, can take up a block of 2x3, with one square still open. If they're really foolish, it's a 3x3 square, with 4 squares open.

I'm AFB but I think there's a daily Cleric utility power that summons allies who do nothing but occupy squares/provide cover to allies. Might be useful here.

Stunning is a thorn in the side of any sustain: minor strategy though.

[Gralamin]

I'll just note that a substantial buff/effect that affects 50 combat rounds is going to be the best choice of a daily power even if combat goes on for another 50 endless, grinding rounds.

True, but at max you might cap out at 200 rounds of dailies, and then thats it. Possibly at-will and more defensive features can get you more, but -I- Certainty don't feel like running such a game

Edit: I suppose if you stagger it right, your group might get up to 1000 rounds of dailies, but I doubt you can keep going as such.

The 5 minute rule is the break after the encounter required for the effects to end. If you avoid being attacked or attacking for 5 minutes, any effect that ends at the end of the encounter ends.

Thats not how the rules work: I quoted the actual rules. Until end of the encounter doesn't mean until the end of the encounter, it means "5 minutes". If you are in combat for 10 minutes straight, your dailies won't last just because you are in combat.

If I'm correct in presuming sustained powers aren't subject to the abitrary 5 minute limit

Correct, but remember, becoming stunned, dazed, or many other conditions can prematurely end a sustained power.

---
Good ideas so far though, quite a few I haven't considered.

[Excession]

For the "fortress" Wizard group they could all be dwarfs to negate the simpler slide powers. Certainly a standard bullrush doesn't work in that case. Dwarfs also get better access to Second Wind than other races. You could also use hybrid Wizard|Cleric or similar rather than having a single dedicated healer.

Paladins might be good. Lay on Hands can be used 4 or even 5 times a day at level 1, and there's no limit on the number of uses per encounter like Healing Word and similar. Massive AC and piles of surges won't exactly kill you either.

[Lunix Vandal]

I'll throw out an example that my RL group (currently level 13) stumbled on over the weekend:

Healbot Cleric, with an Astral Seal that hands out 20 HP (give or take a few)
3 other moderately-to-well-optimized party members, and I'm not picky about what they are (we had a Fighter, TWF Ranger, and Wizard at the time)
VS.
An Endless Parade of Adult Green Dragons.

The healbot saves his non-Astral-Seal heals for himself, and spends as much time as possible Astral Sealing the dragon(s). Once the party starts delay-shuffling to give Astral Seal's healing to whoever needs it most, the dragons can't out-damage the free healing without APs. Which they only get two of, each. This is when their 600+ HP becomes a hindrance: especially once their big-damage attacks are gone, the party literally can't kill the dragons fast enough to allow the collective parade to spend an AP every turn.

Alternately (for the lulz), a pair of clerics with Stream of Life can do this all on their lonesomes. The same passive boosts that raise Astral Seal to 20-ish HP bump SoL into the 30s. And ongoing damage doesn't have the "until the end of the encounter or five minutes, whichever comes first" stuff usually tacked on to powers. And you can (a la the power's wording) choose not to save against the damage, so...

Cleric 1: I take the 5 damage from SoL, and heal the other guy for 30.
Cleric 2: I take the 5 damage from SoL, and heal the other guy for 30.
DM: The dragon crits on both of you with his breath weapon for 15 poison damage each. And 5 poison ongoing.
Cleric 1: Dog bowels. I'm wearing Armor of Poison Resistance, so I only take 5, total. On my turn, I take the 5 from SoL, heal him for 30.
DM: I see. Saddening. And you, Cleric 2?
Cleric 2: Oh, what he said. Double the dog bowels.

They just need to stay within 5 squares of each other and maintain line-of-sight the whole time. What's that, Mr. Dragon? You have no way of blinding things or prying apart two adjacent creatures by more than 2 squares? For shame.

[bosssmiley]

I thought that standard 4E attrition party was 4 clerics and a warlord?

[hamishspence]

Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, and indeed occasionally preferable, for certain situations like this one. They only become improper when used for emphasis, such as "I haven't never heard anything like that before". Overzealous english teachers have managed to obscure this fairly self-evident point with excessive condemnations of all double negatives, despite the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary, among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

Makes me think of that line in Terry Pratchett's Unseen Academicals- when the maid who is serving isn't the exceptionally attractive one.

"she was good looking, but she was not Her"

(The Professor of Grammar would have corrected this to "she was not she" which would have caused the Professor of Logic to spit out his drink.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

So yeah, 50 Rounds of essential invulnerability is a pretty good place to start if you want an Eternal Combat. The problem with the Clerics & Warlord Party is a severe lack of DPR - no matter how much healing you have, if you don't kill the monsters they will wear you down.

Also: there are other "Silver Phoenix" - like Rages out there; IIRC the LV 15 Party will have a second, so there's 100 rounds. Plus there's Stone Bear Rage (LV 9 Daily) which gives (CON) DR as long as it goes - for Goliath Barbarians (CON 20) that's going to be another 50 rounds.

Oh hey, Stances don't have time limits, so an MC Utility to get Bounless Endurance (LV 2 Fighter Utility) should keep our Goliath Barbarians running forever

As for the "run away" party - we're not assuming (I don't think) an infinitely flat plane to fight on. If someone is able to swarm one of your Rangers he's dead - and if there's cover, they're going to have trouble too. Nothing stops the Barbarian

[sonofzeal]

Makes me think of that line in Terry Pratchett's Unseen Academicals- when the maid who is serving isn't the exceptionally attractive one.

"she was good looking, but she was not Her"

(The Professor of Grammar would have corrected this to "she was not she" which would have caused the Professor of Logic to spit out his drink.)

Heh, yes. Actually, a lot of grammar misconceptions come from a misguided attempt to try and make english conform to latin rules, when the two languages don't actually have that much in common. Destructive Double Negatives (that resolve to a positive) are fine in english, as is ending a sentence with a preposition, or beginning one with a conjunction. There's also no such thing as a split infinitive in english, and hence no way to improperly split one. In this case, "Her" is being treated as a proper noun, and is hence entirely appropriate there and should in no way be turned into "she" by even the most rigorous stickler.



As to the challenge itself, would it be possible to have a party that could reliably lock down / debuff an entire wave to the point where they're in absolutely no danger, and then "fail" to dispatch that wave? That might allow them to survive indefinitely.