Optimizing a rogue (3.5)

[Kumori]

I'm wanting to try to play a game as a rogue, but seeing as I almost never play as rogues I decided to ask the playground for advice.

How can a rogue be optimized to play with only one ally when that ally is built as a melee powerhouse?


For reference, the 16:

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1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?
D&D 3.5
2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?
Homebrew world with classic Greyhawk elements.
3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?
Two players.
4.What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?
IRC or instant messenger, to be determined.
5.What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?
Level 5.
6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?
Standard Wealth by Level.
7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?
No homebrew, no obviously broken PrCs (Master of Many Forms, Planar Shepherd, etc.)
8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?
Any race with LA+1 or less.
9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
Max hitpoints at first level, average after. Stats are 36 point buy.
10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?
No restrictions. Being evil does not prevent heroic behavior, but be sure you can roleplay it properly. Chaotic Stupid, Stupid Evil, and Lawful Annoying should be avoided.
11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?
No penalties for multiclassing.
12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?
DM rolls will be done 'behind the screen' as it were, including reactive rolls like spot and listen. All other rolls are done by the player, using Invisible Castle or the like.
13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.
UA Flaws and Traits are in play. Maximum of two traits and two flaws. Flaws must have a noticeable impact on your character to be taken, and both flaws and traits must be roleplayed appropriately.
14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?
A decent background helps me build the world around you as appropriate. I advise using the ten minute background approach if you're stuck for ideas. Do what you like with your history, but avoid naming places.
15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?
Tailored to player preferences. My standard approach is about 50% roleplaying, 40% hack and slash, 10% puzzle solving.
16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?
Any 3.5 book or 3.5 web enhancement is fair game. Attempts to use broken stuff (I'm looking at you, Venomfire) will get you a slap on the wrist and a disapproving frown.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Race: Whisper Gnome (races of stone and Web) it is an excelent race thought it is on the borderline LA +1, ask your DM
Feats of note worthy: Craven Championc of Ruins, add your level as bonus damage to your sneak attack so a +5 at this level.
TWF: Maximize your number of attacks per round to maximize your SA bonus
Weapon Finnese: Reduces MAD
Darkstalker: Lord of Madness be immune to special senses such as scent, blindsense, blindsight and can flank normally unflakeable creatures such as beholders for example.

Get the ACF penetrating strike from Dungeonscape to deal half SA damage to normally immune creatures (undead, constructs, etc) when you flank them.

Also max tumble and UMD, tumble for moving without provoking AoO and UMD for well almost anything, there are also some good attack wands like the lesser orbs of X

A two level dip into Swordsage might be a worthwile option, it gives you decent SP 6+int, some miscelaneous bonus (+1 to Initiative) and also access to both Assassin's stance (+2d6 SA), shadow blade (add DEX mod to damage with some weapons shortsword is a good option) and distracting ember manouber, get a flanking buddy for one round.


Hope that helps and have fun, rogue is one of my favorite classesw ever.

[Xenogears]

You can either pick a focus point and optimize for that or try to be a jack of all trades. Now DnD 3.5 rewards specialization so that is the most powerful option but with only two people being a generalist might help more than usual.

My advise is to pick a focus but make sure to be able to do a little of everything as well. Get UMD so you can get wands/scrolls of some vital spells since you have no caster with you. Open Lock is a waste most of the time as "Fighter Smash" requires less investment. Sneaking basically turns into a solo-minigame which might not be fun so think about how important that is for you. If you want to do a lot of damage with your sneak attack you should do TWF and take the craven feat. If you want to damage constructs, undead, and plants there is an ACF that lets you do 1/2 sneak attack on them you should look into (I can't remember where its from).

[Kumori]

I'm going to have to look a lot of those things up for specifics on how they work, but I have access to most of the sources you listed. Thanks for the advice!

[Tanaric]

Wands of Acid Splash are a cheap way to sneak attack from range with a touch attack. Just make sure you can reliably hit the UMD DC, and you're in business for sneak attack goodness without putting your poor squishy self in harm's way.

A means of hiding in plain sight (via the Dark template from Tome of Magic or some other way) or reliable concealment is very useful for you, since it'll allow you to get that many more sneak attacks.

Craven and Darkstalker, as already mentioned, are definitely two feats you'll want to pick up.

Grab a wand of lesser vigor or three to make up for the lack of healing due to not having a friendly party caster.

[Mushroom Ninja]

If you get into high levels, a Ring of blinking can open up some great tactical option. Since, while you are blinking, your enemies don't get DEX to AC, you don't have to worry about getting flanking to sneak attack. This lets you use TWF + Rapid Shot for great justice.

You probably can't afford it yet, but it's something to consider down the line.

[Kumori]

If you get into high levels, a Ring of blinking can open up some great tactical option. Since, while you are blinking, your enemies don't get DEX to AC, you don't have to worry about getting flanking to sneak attack. This lets you use TWF + Rapid Shot for great justice.

You probably can't afford it yet, but it's something to consider down the line.

That would give me a 20% miss chance as well. I like the idea, but do you know of an easy way to avoid that?

[Kosjsjach]

Like others have said, to excel you should specialize, and if you decide to maximize your sneak attack, you may want to consider multiclassing to Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel.

Swashbuckler gets you free Weapon Finesse, Int to damage, and stacks with rogue levels for Sneak Attack (with the aforementioned feat). Its main draw, though, is that it's a full-BAB class. You're gonna want all the to-hit you can get.

Anyway, it's an option.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That would give me a 20% miss chance as well. I like the idea, but do you know of an easy way to avoid that?

Greater Blink solves that, but I am not sure if there is a ring of Greater Blink.

[Mushroom Ninja]

That would give me a 20% miss chance as well. I like the idea, but do you know of an easy way to avoid that?

Not off the top of my head. However, the ability to sneak attack with all of your attacks (and more due to rapid shot) every round is well-worth the miss chance.

[Tanaric]

Not off the top of my head. However, the ability to sneak attack with all of your attacks (and more due to rapid shot) every round is well-worth the miss chance.

At the risk of repeating myself, Hide in Plain Sight will let you catch enemies flatfooted round after round with a halfway decent Hide skill. No miss chance involved there. Just avoid areas of full daylight when you can.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Just avoid areas of full daylight when you can.

And Dragons. And things with touchsight.

(that said, HiPS is still very nice, it's just more circumventable than blink, and requires a greater investment)

[Tanaric]

And Dragons. And things with touchsight.

(that said, HiPS is still very nice, it's just more circumventable than blink, and requires a greater investment)

All it takes is an LA+1 template (which is presumably bought off at some point), whereas the Ring of Blinking takes three times his current WBL.

[Kumori]

No reason I couldn't do both. One needs only money, the other needs skills/feats/abilities.

[Mushroom Ninja]

All it takes is an LA+1 template (which is presumably bought off at some point), whereas the Ring of Blinking takes three times his current WBL.

Dark Template? Nice find, I had forgotten about that one. I guess I was suggesting the Ring for a little further down the road, when dragons and the like are more common.

[Kumori]

Whats the sourcebook for the Dark template?

[Tanaric]

Tome of Magic.

[Eldariel]

Acquirable through Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis; no reason to waste LA there. Though Wilderness Rogue can pick HiPS as a special ability on level 13; something to consider too.

[Gnaeus]

If the idea of playing a humanoid jackel doesn't turn you off, look at Marrulurk (Sandstorm). 3 RHD +1 LA, but it gives 2 bonus feats, GREAT stats, great skill bonuses to rogue skills, +2d6 sneak attack, and some other stuff that is awesome for rogues.

[mostlyharmful]

That would give me a 20% miss chance as well. I like the idea, but do you know of an easy way to avoid that?

There is an argument that can be made that if you use thrown weaponry it's leaving your possession when you chuck it, since Blink stops working once it's left you and it auto comes out on the material plane that so long as you're lobbing flasks of acid rather than trying to stab things the 20% doesn't apply..

YMMV with that one but the alternative is frankly even sweeter (taking off the ring ends the effect aswel and if the above doesn't hold you've got a 20% chance of winding up on the Ethereal plane, instant escape route/infiltration route)

[Thespianus]

Have you considered to pursue the Arcane Arts? :)

If your one ally is a Melee Powerhouse, you'll be lacking in magic.

Focused Conjurer 2/Rogue 3 will let you get into Unseen Seer at level 6,
where you will get 3/4 BAB, good skills, full caster progression and further sneak attack dies.

Get Abrupt Jaunt for your Conjurer, Practiced Spellcaster-feat, and that Rogue-ACF that allows you to sneak attack constructs and undeads when flanking them.

If you like the idea of an Arcane Rogue, this is a great way to go! :)

[Curmudgeon]

At the risk of repeating myself, Hide in Plain Sight will let you catch enemies flatfooted round after round with a halfway decent Hide skill.

You're specifically referring to the Dark Creature template version of Hide in Plain Sight, which is the weakest of all the various abilities with this name. Generally speaking, Extraordinary versions of HiPS still require cover/concealment to enable a Hide check; Hide in Plain Sight, as the name states, generally only takes care of the other Hide requirement (not being observed). The Dark Creature HiPS has this limitation, plus the additional limitation of not working in bright light.

This HiPS is pretty much a complete waste for a Rogue. If you add concealment (such as from a Darkness spell) you'll probably sacrifice your sneak attack.

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

If you want to Hide at will, you really need a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer for their superior Supernatural form of Hide in Plain Sight:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

This obviates both of the Hide requirements, not just one.

[Ormagoden]

How can a rogue be optimized to play with only one ally when that ally is built as a melee powerhouse?

1. Take UMD
2. Max UMD
3. Buy wands
4. ????
5. Profit
6. [/thread]


Also Boots of tracklessness (or trackless step can't remember)

[Orran]

The pierce magical concealment feat should allow you to ignore the 20% miss chance, not sure though. To get it you need to take a few other feats, but they're not bad ones. Complete warrior I think.

EDIT: Complete arcane, and the wording could be disputed.

[Draz74]

And Dragons. And things with touchsight.

(that said, HiPS is still very nice, it's just more circumventable than blink, and requires a greater investment)

Dragons aren't a problem if you take Darkstalker.

Well, I guess they've still got uber-high Spot and Listen checks. But then, Dark Whisper Gnomes get some pretty hefty Hide/Move Silently bonuses themselves.

Acquirable through Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis; no reason to waste LA there.

Except that the Collar is expensive; he's Level 5 and won't be able to afford the Collar until Level 9 or so. If LA Buyoff is allowed, I'd certainly recommend the Dark template over the Collar at this level.

You're specifically referring to the Dark Creature template version of Hide in Plain Sight, which is the weakest of all the various abilities with this name. Generally speaking, Extraordinary versions of HiPS still require cover/concealment to enable a Hide check; Hide in Plain Sight, as the name states, generally only takes care of the other Hide requirement (not being observed). The Dark Creature HiPS has this limitation, plus the additional limitation of not working in bright light.

These limits are definitely something to consider ... but really, being observed is the hard requirement to overcome, and the Dark Template does just fine with it. (You act like it's hard to get concealment or something ...)

If you add concealment (such as from a Darkness spell) you'll probably sacrifice your sneak attack.

That's why I recommend using a Dark Lantern (2000 gp, Tome of Magic). It guarantees you'll always be able to fight in a dark area -- but unlike a Darkness spell, Darkvision works perfectly fine in this one, so if you're a Whisper Gnome, no worries. And if your enemies have Darkvision too? No problem, just throw on a Ring of the Darkhidden (2000 gp, MIC). Now you're invisible to Darkvision. Only if enemies have Darkvision and See Invisibility do you have to worry about some other source of cover or concealment.

Eventually you should pick up Greater Blurring Armor (MIC, +3-equivalent); it's kind of the "Ring of Blinking without the 20% miss chance" item you were hoping for. Except it gives you the ability to use your Hide in Plain Sight too.

Also Boots of tracklessness (or trackless step can't remember)

Where are those from?

[Telonius]

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?
Tailored to player preferences. My standard approach is about 50% roleplaying, 40% hack and slash, 10% puzzle solving.

This little bit might be important. Your other party member is built to be a melee powerhouse. That usually means, "not too many skill points." Given this, I might actually consider building a social Rogue with a strong side of intelligence.

Now, take this with a very great deal of caution... but this situation is also about the only one where I might consider taking 10 levels of Master of Masks. Normally the PrC is a one- or two-level dip at most. But in this case ... it's a possibility. Fighter McWarrior will be able to go up and bash things. But if you need healing? Or some random spell that a Wizard would have no problem supplying? You're out of luck. One level of a spellcasting class (Bard might actually make sense), then go to town.

If you weren't fully intent on Rogue, I might suggest Druid or Artificer. Low numbers in the party aren't as much of a problem when you can summon or build allies.

[Tanis HalfElven]

That would give me a 20% miss chance as well. I like the idea, but do you know of an easy way to avoid that?

Ghost Touch weapons

btw, greater blurring isn't the same as blink, as you're not treated as invisible for SA.