[3.5] VoP + Tattooed Monk - Good combination?

[Optimystik]

I know, from previous threads, that the VoP Monk seems like a good idea on paper but doesn't quite work that well in practice.

But would a Tattooed Monk (CW) be a better fit? I was thinking that the Chameleon tattoo (Alter self tattoos/day, for hours/tattoo) would take care of the main criticism of a VoP Monk, i.e. lack of movement modes (specifically, flight.) I think the VoP benefits make certain tattoos unnecessary too, like the one where you don't have to eat and drink.

Assuming I'm not way off base, what would a good build be? And what tattoos would be good to take?

[Eloel]

You're adding VoP (subpar), to Monk (very subpar).
The end result, no matter how synergistic, won't be above 'meh'.

[RagnaroksChosen]

the problem ios with the alter self is its 1/day and even though it last 5 hours it is dispellable then your sol for the rest of the day.

However it does help alot... I would say it increases the ability of a monk to function ina party.

Tatooed monk is a great monk prc any way... mabye add some fist of the forest and the ususal increases in unarmed damage.

[Optimystik]

You're adding VoP (subpar), to Monk (very subpar).
The end result, no matter how synergistic, won't be above 'meh'.

I disagree - I think this PrC can keep a lot of the monk's flavor while solving many of its power issues. It effectively lets you combine VoP benefits with "magic items" (the tattoos) without breaking the vows.

the problem ios with the alter self is its 1/day and even though it last 5 hours it is dispellable then your sol for the rest of the day.

However it does help alot... I would say it increases the ability of a monk to function ina party.

Actually, you're mistaken on two counts:

1) Tattoos are Supernatural, not spell-likes, and thus cannot be dispelled (though they won't function in an AMF.)

2) You can use the ability once per tattoo per day, not once per day. By TM 9, you will have 5 tattoos - meaning 5 Alter Selfs per day, each lasting 5 hours - you can have it up nearly constantly.


EDIT: I am still looking for tattoo suggestions. I won't need the ability score tattoos like Bat (Dexterity) because they won't stack with VoP... does anyone know which ones would work better?

(Or perhaps I can take one - maybe Charisma - and use VoP on the other ones?)

[RagnaroksChosen]

Actually, you're mistaken on two counts:

1) Tattoos are Supernatural, not spells, and thus cannot be dispelled (though they won't function in an AMF.)

2) You can use the ability once per tattoo per day, not once per day. By TM 9, you will have 5 tattoos - meaning 5 Alter Selfs per day, each lasting 5 hours - you can have it up nearly constantly.


EDIT: I am still looking for tattoo suggestions. I won't need the ability score tattoos like Bat (Dexterity) because they won't stack with VoP... does anyone know which ones would work better?

(Or perhaps I can take one - maybe Charisma - and use VoP on the other ones?)

I stand corrected... I was under the assumtion they where spell like's...

Im away from books right now so sorry about that... Then if thats the case yes its a great addition to it... and would work with VOP.

Not sure about the validity of these but i would pick
wasp for haste
lion for smite
tiger for bonus damage and to hit
unicorn cuz rerolls rock.

[Ormagoden]

With the limited time I have at the moment I came up with this

Monk 1/ Fighter 4 /Fist of the forest 10 (it is ten isn't it?)

32 point buy all 14s except for cha

Flaws
Shaky
Inattentive (let someone else focus on spot/listen)

Feats (not in any particular order)

Great Fortitude
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Water Splitting Stone
Fists of Iron
Flying Kick
Superior Unarmed Strike
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike).

The attacks end up being +3 weapons
2d8 +1d6 +10
and
2d8 +1d6 +1d12 +10 on a charge.

122HP
AC 29
+19 Fort +14 Ref +11 Will
DR 5/magic DR 5/evil

all energy resistance 5

Maybe next time around I'll actually include tattooed monk.

[Optimystik]

I stand corrected... I was under the assumtion they where spell like's...

Well, one of them is spell-like - Crescent Moon, which lets you Ethereal Jaunt 1/day. All the rest are (Su.)

(In addition to the limited use, it's only available at 9th-level - quite safe to skip, I think.)

Not sure about the validity of these but i would pick
wasp for haste
lion for smite
tiger for bonus damage and to hit
unicorn cuz rerolls rock.

Oh, excellent suggestions. I completely forgot tiger and wasp.

All right, so Wasp would definitely be in, as would Tiger. Lion only applies to one hit, so I'm iffy about that - a monk's strength is supposed to be landing multiple smaller attacks, not one big one. Unicorn is nice, but only 1/day - I'm leery about that too.

I was thinking Tortoise would be a nice one - treat any untrained skill as trained, and use my TM level as the number of ranks I possess, tattoos/day. I can't use UMD because of the Vow (and I'm trying to avoid being a Giamonk anyway ) but I can do Gather Information or Spellcraft in a pinch. Is there a non-monk skill that would make this one worth it?

I also like Crane - disease and poison immunity, which I'll need since I won't be a monk for very long and VoP doesn't confer those benefits.

So far, my top 4 are

Chameleon
Crane
Wasp
Tiger

And now I'm deciding between Tortoise (for untrained skills) and Phoenix (for Spell Resistance - 15 + TM level.)

Which do you think? And thanks for your help!

Finally, I'll be level 14 at the end (VoP Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9 - no capstone, so no reason to stay until 10.) That leaves 6 levels - what should I PrC into to finish the build? Any non-caster classes that are good?

Maybe next time around I'll actually include tattooed monk.

No worries Fist of the Forest might actually be a good way to finish this build up. I'll take a look at it in a few.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well, one of them is spell-like - Crescent Moon, which lets you Ethereal Jaunt 1/day. All the rest are (Su.)

(In addition to the limited use, it's only available at 9th-level - quite safe to skip, I think.)



Oh, excellent suggestions. I completely forgot tiger and wasp.

All right, so Wasp would definitely be in, as would Tiger. Lion only applies to one hit, so I'm iffy about that - a monk's strength is supposed to be landing multiple smaller attacks, not one big one. Unicorn is nice, but only 1/day - I'm leery about that too.

I was thinking Tortoise would be a nice one - treat any untrained skill as trained, and use my TM level as the number of ranks I possess, tattoos/day. I can't use UMD because of the Vow (and I'm trying to avoid being a Giamonk anyway ) but I can do Gather Information or Spellcraft in a pinch. Is there a non-monk skill that would make this one worth it?

I also like Crane - disease and poison immunity, which I'll need since I won't be a monk for very long and VoP doesn't confer those benefits.

So far, my top 4 are

Chameleon
Crane
Wasp
Tiger

And now I'm deciding between Tortoise (for untrained skills) and Phoenix (for Spell Resistance - 15 + TM level.)

Which do you think? And thanks for your help!

Finally, I'll be level 14 at the end (VoP Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9 - no capstone, so no reason to stay until 10.) That leaves 6 levels - what should I PrC into to finish the build? Any non-caster classes that are good?

Is unicorn 1/day not 1/day per tattoo(don't have book in front of me)


only untrained skill that would be worth it is potential autohypnosis. or survival if need be.

Might also want to splash some psy fist prc.
Also you may want to trade up flurry for decisive strike... but it all depends on what you want to do.

[Starbuck_II]

Unicorn 1/day.

Ooh, add Bloodline to this monk will help sincde Bloodline adds to Class level for these things (duration at least).

[Optimystik]

Is unicorn 1/day not 1/day per tattoo(don't have book in front of me)

Just once per day. If it was once per tattoo I'd snap it up in a heartbeat Rerolls are indeed awesome.

only untrained skill that would be worth it is potential autohypnosis. or survival if need be.

...I can't believe I forgot Autohypnosis! This guy is getting better and better.

Survival shouldn't be a problem - between his energy resistance and Sustenance (no need to eat/sleep), he should have no problem "roughing it" outdoors.

Might also want to splash some psy fist prc. Also you may want to trade up flurry for decisive strike... but it all depends on what you want to do.

I'm trying to make him as "purely martial" as possible - no psionics. I realize that the tattoos, being supernatural, run counter to that idea, but since the class is from Complete Warrior I think I can get a pass.

What is Decisive Strike from?

I'll take a look at Fist of the Forest in a few.

[Starbuck_II]

PHB 2: trade flurry for 1 big unarmed strike attack (double damage).

Scorpian is pretty awesome: Most creatures dump Cha or Int after all. Wait, does a Con score - = -5 or 0?


Does bloodline increase number of tattoos gain? Text says 1 tattoo ever odd class level...

[RagnaroksChosen]

...I can't believe I forgot Autohypnosis! This guy is getting better and better.

Survival shouldn't be a problem - between his energy resistance and Sustenance (no need to eat/sleep), he should have no problem "roughing it" outdoors.

I'm trying to make him as "purely martial" as possible - no psionics. I realize that the tattoos, being supernatural, run counter to that idea, but since the class is from Complete Warrior I think I can get a pass.


What is Decisive Strike from?

I'll take a look at Fist of the Forest in a few.

Ya autohypnosis rocks...

understandable about survival

fair enough about psionics... though it wuold help with a vop build.


decisive strike is from phb2 you give up flurry for it.
full round action to make 1 attack that does double damage. at -2 to hit... all your dmage you do untill you next round is doubled...
it works great with snap kick from TOB (when ever you make an unarmed attack you may make an aditional one) and haste(though im not sure if you get the haste attack or not)...

so you could be making 2-3 attacks at double damage. definetly want to look into it.

[paddyfool]

Is there a non-monk skill that would make this one worth it?

I gather you can do some fun things with Autohypnosis & Iajitsu Focus. And then there are all the fringe skills that you don't need most of the time but can be really fun when they're most appropriate... this would even be good for Knowledge (anything). Never mind the RP-value, when your usually taciturn monk breaks out into song, your usually honest monk lies through his teeth or... wait, how does this work with Speak Language? All in all, +9 to any untrained skill check is really quite fun, although you'd still lose out on opposed checks against anyone fully trained. I'd get this late, though; small skill bonuses aren't really worth enough to justify it. EDIT: Also, don't rule out the monk skills that you just won't have the skill points to invest in.

[Optimystik]

PHB 2: trade flurry for 1 big unarmed strike attack (double damage).

Hmm. If I use that, Lion might be a better choice than Tiger for a huge smite. I'll take a look at that too, thanks.

Scorpian is pretty awesome: Most creatures dump Cha or Int after all. Wait, does a Con score - = -5 or 0?

"Con -" means that the creature has no constitution, not that it equals zero. Therefore hurting its Con does nothing, nor are they able to make constitution-based checks.

Does bloodline increase number of tattoos gain? Text says 1 tattoo ever odd class level...

The text does not impose a maximum on tattoos. Bloodlines are stinky, stinky cheese... just what a monk needs

Which bloodline would you suggest?

it works great with snap kick from TOB (when ever you make an unarmed attack you may make an aditional one) and haste(though im not sure if you get the haste attack or not)...

I'm also trying to avoid ToB - the minute I include it, I'll hear cries of "just be a swordsage!"

This build seems to be at least respectable without it.

[Starbuck_II]

"Con -" means that the creature has no constitution, not that it equals zero. Therefore hurting its Con does nothing, nor are they able to make constitution-based checks.

Not able to make Con checks? Sweet. Scorpian (pg 84 CW) makes them use lowest ability score to attack you (instead of Str or Dexd that might be used normally): If Con - means auto fail then they miss you.
Useable 1 per tattoo, as a free action on opponents turn before attack roll declared a success or failure.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I'm also trying to avoid ToB - the minute I include it, I'll hear cries of "just be a swordsage!"

This build seems to be at least respectable without it.

Its a feat that has nothing to do with TOB... it was kinda just thrown in there for the fun of it...


Sorta like stand still and psionics.

[lsfreak]

Decisive Strike + Robilar's Gambit is probably going to be a fairly good option. You'll only hit once on your main attack, but every AoO is also double damage. Combine that with Snap Kick, which is also doubled...
The biggest problem is that I'm not sure if it would benefit from haste. I don't think it will.

[Prime32]

Consider some warshaper levels to take advantage of your ability to change shape. With the lv5 capstone you basically have alter self at will.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Consider some warshaper levels to take advantage of your ability to change shape. With the lv5 capstone you basically have alter self at will.

does alter self qualify i thought you had to have polymorph

[Prime32]

does alter self qualify i thought you had to have polymorph

Well, if it doesn't, you could always choose changeling, shifter or hengeyokai as your race and pick up the [shapechanger] subtype. The capstone should still apply.

[Starbuck_II]

You also could just buy the Shapeshifter subtype from Savage Species: it cost 56, 000 gp, but is instanteous (can't be dispelled).

[Optimystik]

Not able to make Con checks? Sweet. Scorpian (pg 84 CW) makes them use lowest ability score to attack you (instead of Str or Dexd that might be used normally): If Con - means auto fail then they miss you.
Useable 1 per tattoo, as a free action on opponents turn before attack roll declared a success or failure.

I'm not sure if that will work - if an enemy has no Con score, then it might not even be countable for the purposes of Scorpion. DM call, I'd say.

Not that I'm really worried about being hit - between Wis to AC, Monk AC bonus, Dex to AC, Deflection from VoP and Natural armor from VoP, and Haste.... plus it only applies to one opponent, where I'd rather be tanking several if I can.

Its a feat that has nothing to do with TOB... it was kinda just thrown in there for the fun of it...

Sorta like stand still and psionics.

That's fair. I'll give it a look too.

Decisive Strike + Robilar's Gambit is probably going to be a fairly good option. You'll only hit once on your main attack, but every AoO is also double damage. Combine that with Snap Kick, which is also doubled...
The biggest problem is that I'm not sure if it would benefit from haste. I don't think it will.

What's Robilar's Gambit, and where is it from?

Consider some warshaper levels to take advantage of your ability to change shape. With the lv5 capstone you basically have alter self at will.

Unfortunately, Alter Self isnt listed among the acceptable prereqs for Warshaper. Of course, I could be mistaken about its eligibility - wasn't CW before the Polymorph rules update?

[Animefunkmaster]

A little tidbit to add.

In the Rokugan d20 Secrets of the Dragon (I know Rokugan does not have the most balance compared to other settings) a Dragon Clan tattooed monk may take tattoos as Kiho Feats provided they don't go over the amount of void points (something just about everyone has in that game) they have.

Worth talking to a DM to allow you to take a few tattoos as feats which in turn makes most tattoos stronger.

The book also offers new tattoos (I will summarize, but they are on Page 79 Secrets of the Dragon).

Eagle: Spend a void point get a huge bonus to jump for 5 minutes
Rising Sun: 1/day create an emanation that can possibly blind and stun (two saves)tainted creatures only functions in daylight.
Void: Each time you spend a void point to get a stack-able bonus to checks that perceive the environment, spending 4 specifically to this tat will let you see through all non-magical obstructions. Afterward you tack a penalty based on the bonuses (exact opposite) you received. Pretty long duration for both.
Wolf: Gain Scent, and penalty against things that target scent (Stinking cloud)
Cat: 1/day/tattoo add the number of tats you have as an enhancement bonus to cha
Panther: Similar to the chameleon but disguise self as opposed to alter self
Vine: 1/day Regenerate at a set caster level
White Dragon: (min monk/tattooed monk level combination 10) Spend void points cast cone of cold, take large penalty to initiative afterward for long duration
Avalanche: Mini rage, spend void point increase str by 4 (typless) for a number of rounds equal to con. Afterward fatigued
Blaze: 1/day/tatoo after a successful unarmed attack your attack is treated as if it had a (specifically stack-able) +2 enhancement bonus and fiery burst.
Bone: Gains rebuke kind of like a paladin, can only control 1 intelligent undead but regular limit on mindless.

[lsfreak]

Robilar's Gambit is PHB2, requires Combat Reflexes. +4 to attack and damage rolls against you, but every melee attack against you provokes. Combined with the double damage of Decisive Strike (which explicitly lasts until your next turn), that can be a pretty nasty AoO build. The problem is that you lack reach, which isn't ideal, and won't benefit from the huge Power Attack bonuses of many AoO builds. And, again, Decisive Strike is a 'full-round action,' and may or may not benefit from haste.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm not sure if that will work - if you an enemy has no Con score, then it might not even be countable for the purposes of Scorpion. DM call, I'd say.

Not that I'm really worried about being hit - between Wis to AC, Monk AC bonus, Dex to AC, Deflection from VoP and Natural armor from VoP, and Haste.... plus it only applies to one opponent, where I'd rather be tanking several if I can.

Your Touch AC will be high, but lower than normal AC: it might be handy vs touch attacks if they roll really well (before they ask if it hits, look at number rolled).
Plus, sometimes you fight a BBEG who is higher level who can normally hit you. But against mooks (below your level enemies) or goons (your level enemies), I agree you should be fine.

[Optimystik]

@ anime: Some of those tattoos look interesting, but I'm afraid I have no idea what "void points" are. Thank you for the input though - when I'm done optimizing for D&D I'll see if i can incorporate other systems.

@ lsfreak: I agree the lack of reach could be problem. Can Alter Self fix that? Having every hit provoke would be nice.

@ Starbuck: I'm not going to focus heavily on touch AC. Trying to boost that to a meaningful level is a losing game - I'd rather keep my offensive power, and just rely on Dex, dodge and deflection and maybe size to help me out.

***

All right, I looked up Fist of the Forest. The synergy is quite good. I dislike being feral, but the benefits may be worth it. I'd be getting:

- Con to AC: Which stacks with all my other AC bonuses above.
- Advances monk speed , armor bonus and Unarmed Strike progression
- Claws (+2 damage to all attacks, stacks with Tiger tattoo) and Mini-rage 2/day, with a bite attack (1d6 +Str) while I'm raging
- Cannot sleep indoors or buy food: not a problem, since I need neither
- Uncanny Dodge (Improved if I already have UD by then.)
- Ghost touch fists!
- Scent

So... this is a pretty strong contender for levels 15-18, I think Are there any other decent monk PrCs I can take? Either for the last 2 levels, or in place of FotF. I'd really like something that wouldn't turn me into a savage, but I'll take it if not.

[Starbuck_II]

Are you a Dwarf? Deep Warden lets you add Con to AC instead of Dex at level 2.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Are you a Dwarf? Deep Warden lets you add Con to AC instead of Dex at level 2.

doesn't progress monk abilities

[Optimystik]

Are you a Dwarf? Deep Warden lets you add Con to AC instead of Dex at level 2.

I'd rather not make it restricted to any one race unless I have to, but I'll take a look at Deep Warden. Races of Stone?

doesn't progress monk abilities

While I would like 20 levels of monk abilities ideally, I'm okay with losing 2

Where can I find a list of Monk-progressing PrCs to comb through? Is there a Monk handbook?

(No builds that use partially-charged wands please)

[RagnaroksChosen]

Um i would used crystal keep though its not extensive...
i think each of the completes included one prc that increase monk abilities