[3.5] ecl 10 Cheese needed

[Terrowin]

i've got a friend thats running a villian dnd game, i was wanting to make a cheese level 10, any race. has to be an ecl of 10, and i think its an eborron setting.

[paddyfool]

1) What flavour of cheese? (What kind of cheesy abilities do you actually want?)

2) To keep up with an optimised party, to survive a killer DM, or to outshine your buddies? (Note: two of these are very wrong answers).

3) Do you have any roleplaying concepts in mind at all?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human Cleric of Zarus 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10. Domains are War, Strength, Oracle, Law, and Destiny in that order. Say you visited the Frog God's Fane in CS to get Skill Focus: Kn: Religion for 2,000 gp instead of wasting a feat on it. Get Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, Extra Turning, Craft Rod, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, and DMM: Quicken in that order. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend, a +1 Animated shield, Mithral Full Plate, a decent Greatsword, and make as many Night Sticks as you can afford to. The Lesser Rod of Extend is for Delay Poison and Magic Vestment twice. You'll probably have to manually cast Extended GMW on your greatsword. Use the standard array of DMM: Persist spells (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Magic Circle, Nightshield, Mass Lesser Vigor, etc.). By level 12 you should try to get a standard Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power, so every day you can alternate between casting Energy Immunity three times or Energy Immunity twice and Superior Resistance. By level 17 you'll have the Destiny domain and be able to DMM: Persist Choose Destiny, which is probably one of the best buffs in the game. Get a Greater Rod of Chain Spell (CA) and use it when casting Destruction, the save DC won't be reduced for secondary targets because it deals damage.

[The Glyphstone]

Human Cleric of Zarus 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10. Domains are War, Strength, Oracle, Law, and Destiny in that order. Say you visited the Frog God's Fane in CS to get Skill Focus: Kn: Religion for 2,000 gp instead of wasting a feat on it. Get Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, Extra Turning, Craft Rod, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, and DMM: Quicken in that order. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend, a +1 Animated shield, Mithral Full Plate, a decent Greatsword, and make as many Night Sticks as you can afford to. The Lesser Rod of Extend is for Delay Poison and Magic Vestment twice. You'll probably have to manually cast Extended GMW on your greatsword. Use the standard array of DMM: Persist spells (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Magic Circle, Nightshield, Mass Lesser Vigor, etc.). By level 12 you should try to get a standard Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power, so every day you can alternate between casting Energy Immunity three times or Energy Immunity twice and Superior Resistance. By level 17 you'll have the Destiny domain and be able to DMM: Persist Choose Destiny, which is probably one of the best buffs in the game. Get a Greater Rod of Chain Spell (CA) and use it when casting Destruction, the save DC won't be reduced for secondary targets because it deals damage.

Just curious, but how is this helpful for an ECL10 game? He needs to be cheesy immediately - planning for long-term in an Evil game could be a very poor strategy.

[Terrowin]

i need it to prove a point. the dm has a habit of rules lawering in others games. he droped it to ecl of 10 to keep some people from playing what they want. he plays stats not characters, and wants people to play characters in his games not stats.

[Overshee]

i need it to prove a point. the dm has a habit of rules lawering in others games. he droped it to ecl of 10 to keep some people from playing what they want. he plays stats not characters, and wants people to play characters in his games not stats.

Why don't you get back at him by playing an extremely well RP'd character instead of cheesing it up?

[Terrowin]

thats what i normaly do.

[Terrowin]

everyone had a specific type of character they wanted to play, then he put it at ecl of 10, and i think only one person didn't have to change what they were playing.

[The Glyphstone]

Why don't you get back at him by playing an extremely well RP'd character instead of cheesing it up?

Not to Stormwind an interesting thread, but these don't have to be exclusive. He can build the most ridonkulous cheesemonster ever to turn its unholy gaze upon an innocent gametable, and still RP it beautifully. Actually, if he can pull this off, it's the best of both worlds...he gets to show off that the DM's attempt to crush cheese failed without giving anything obvious to complain about.

[Overshee]

Not to Stormwind an interesting thread, but these don't have to be exclusive. He can build the most ridonkulous cheesemonster ever to turn its unholy gaze upon an innocent gametable, and still RP it beautifully. Actually, if he can pull this off, it's the best of both worlds...he gets to show off that the DM's attempt to crush cheese failed without giving anything obvious to complain about.

Very true. I was trying to make the point that just because his DM usually plays "stats not characters" doesn't mean he has to as well to get even.

[Terrowin]

well i have always had a habit of doing what the character would over what he could. i don't think i could just play stats. but it would be nice to have them.

[LichPrinceAlim]

ECL 10 ya say....

Vashara Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Thrallheard 3 anyone?

or maybe

Warforged Fighter 5/Souleater 5

or even

Hengeyokai Swordsage 6/ Master of Many Forms 4

take your pick

[Dusk Eclipse]

ECL 10 ya say....

Vashara Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Thrallheard 3 anyone?

or maybe

Warforged Fighter 5/Souleater 5

or even

Hengeyokai Swordsage 6/ Master of Many Forms 4

take your pick

How do you quallify? arent you confusing it with warshaper?

[The Glyphstone]

How do you quallify? arent you confusing it with warshaper?

Probably because the Hengawhatever thingy can transform into a sparrow. If it's worded right, it would technically qualify.

[magic9mushroom]

i've got a friend thats running a villian dnd game, i was wanting to make a cheese level 10, any race. has to be an ecl of 10, and i think its an eborron setting.

Archivist 2/Beholder Mage 2/Tainted Scholar 2/Dweomerkeeper 4.

Casting mechanic is best of both worlds between Wizard and Sorcerer (spontaneous casting and can add spells to one's list without limit), you have 8th level spells and can cast 9 of them per round, you have huge spells/day and unbeatable save DCs, and you get Supernatural Spell 1/day, which is awesome.

That's cheese.

[faceroll]

There's a race in Lost Empires of Faerun called the Phaerimm. They're a race of freaky looking aberrations that get sorcerer casting based on how many character levels they have. The lowest ECL one is a Hatchling; 2 RHD and 2 LA, with casting as a sorcerer of second level. Then take 8 levels of sorcerer (buy off the LA at levels 6 & 9). All these sorcerer levels stack; the Phaerimm has 8 character levels and 2 RHD that give it two sorcerer levels, so it has 10 sorcerer levels from its race. Then that explicitly stacks with any sorcerer levels it has, which happen to be 8.

Congratulations, you are casting 9th level spells at level 10. And you don't even have to mess around with any PAO shens.

Archivist 2/Beholder Mage 2/Tainted Scholar 2/Dweomerkeeper 4.

Casting mechanic is best of both worlds between Wizard and Sorcerer (spontaneous casting and can add spells to one's list without limit), you have 8th level spells and can cast 9 of them per round, you have huge spells/day and unbeatable save DCs, and you get Supernatural Spell 1/day, which is awesome.

That's cheese.

And then you lose it all to a dispel. No thanks!

[magic9mushroom]

And then you lose it all to a dispel. No thanks!

You has Supernatural Spell and 8th level spells. It cannot be dispelled.

I did miss the Phaerimm though. Phaerimm Sorcerer 2/Tainted Scholar 2/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4?

[Superglucose]

2) To keep up with an optimised party, to survive a killer DM, or to outshine your buddies? (Note: two of these are very wrong answers).

I'm not convinced any of those are wrong answers. Keeping up with a party that's optimized while you aren't is valuable and will help make the game more fun for everyone, "killer DM" could very well just mean a GM who likes keeping the baseline fight at CR+2 rather than CR and prefers a higher-powered campaign to throw his shiny monsters around, and in some groups builds are seen as a sort of "challenge" with most of the fun being "HA! I figured out how to do it better!"

This last one happened in a 'playtest' I was doing where we discovered that the system was functionally unplayable without gentlemen's agreements. We tried pointing it out to the system designer who would go on for an hour about how poor our builds really were, despite being COMPLETELY unable to even scratch our characters. So what it degenerated into was "Who's character is the MOST broken?" It was a kind of challenge, and we had a lot of fun describing the absurdly awesome things our characters could do at low levels.

[gorfnab]

Elf Warlock 1/ Binder 3/ Fiend of Possession 6 - Needs Otherworldly (PGtF) feat and Ritual of Alignment (SS). Or just use Divine Minion entry.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Probably because the Hengawhatever thingy can transform into a sparrow. If it's worded right, it would technically qualify.

correctomundo.

Technically, anything that can "pseudo-wildshape" can take MoMF.

Hengeyokai can transform nonmagically into one of like 7 or so forms, including Racoon Dog, Carp and Fox, not including Sparrow. Sure, it's underhanded and most DMs'd throw PHB I & II, Monster Manual I-V, and DMG I & II from every edition at you, but it works

[magic9mushroom]

correctomundo.

Technically, anything that can "pseudo-wildshape" can take MoMF.

Hengeyokai can transform nonmagically into one of like 7 or so forms, including Racoon Dog, Carp and Fox, not including Sparrow. Sure, it's underhanded and most DMs'd throw PHB I & II, Monster Manual I-V, and DMG I & II from every edition at you, but it works

Unless you're planning on Pun-Pun shenanigans, I think a Phaerimm has more power for less dodginess.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe go Human Divine Minion LA +1 (bought off) Master of Many Forms 10. Get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, +X Wild Mountain Plate, maybe a Cloak of Cha with a Wilding Clasp for DCs. Take Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability. You can Wild Shape at will as a free action, and remember that you heal as though you rested a night every time you wild shape, and also that you can take forms up to 21 HD.

Wild Shape into an Adult Shadow Dragon (free) and use your breath attack to deal 3 negative levels (standard), Wild Shape into a Beholder (free) and use all of your eye rays (free), Wild Shape into a Choker (free) and use your extra standard action to ready a Death Ray (standard), Wild Shape into a Catoblepas (free) and use your Death Ray (readied), Wild Shape into a Phiuhl (free) and affect everyone with your Death Gas (free), Wild Shape into a Thought Slayer (free) and use your Mind-Consuming Gaze (free) and then Ethereal Jaunt (free). At the start of the next round move-action back to the material plane and repeat the entire process, taking the form of a different individual of each race so you won't have to wait 1d4 rounds to breathe again, etc. because you're not in the form of the same dragon as the last time. On your turn you obliterate everything, when it's not you turn you're ethereal and immune to almost everything in the game.

[magic9mushroom]

Maybe go Human Divine Minion LA +1 (bought off) Master of Many Forms 10. Get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, +X Wild Mountain Plate, maybe a Cloak of Cha with a Wilding Clasp for DCs. Take Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability. You can Wild Shape at will as a free action, and remember that you heal as though you rested a night every time you wild shape, and also that you can take forms up to 21 HD.

Wild Shape into an Adult Shadow Dragon (free) and use your breath attack to deal 3 negative levels (standard), Wild Shape into a Beholder (free) and use all of your eye rays (free), Wild Shape into a Choker (free) and use your extra standard action to ready a Death Ray (standard), Wild Shape into a Catoblepas (free) and use your Death Ray (readied), Wild Shape into a Phiuhl (free) and affect everyone with your Death Gas (free), Wild Shape into a Thought Slayer (free) and use your Mind-Consuming Gaze (free) and then Ethereal Jaunt (free). At the start of the next round move-action back to the material plane and repeat the entire process, taking the form of a different individual of each race so you won't have to wait 1d4 rounds to breathe again, etc. because you're not in the form of the same dragon as the last time. On your turn you obliterate everything, when it's not you turn you're ethereal and immune to almost everything in the game.

Hail you from the Far Realm, good sir?

[Overshee]

Maybe go Human Divine Minion LA +1 (bought off) Master of Many Forms 10. Get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, +X Wild Mountain Plate, maybe a Cloak of Cha with a Wilding Clasp for DCs. Take Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability. You can Wild Shape at will as a free action, and remember that you heal as though you rested a night every time you wild shape, and also that you can take forms up to 21 HD.

Wild Shape into an Adult Shadow Dragon (free) and use your breath attack to deal 3 negative levels (standard), Wild Shape into a Beholder (free) and use all of your eye rays (free), Wild Shape into a Choker (free) and use your extra standard action to ready a Death Ray (standard), Wild Shape into a Catoblepas (free) and use your Death Ray (readied), Wild Shape into a Phiuhl (free) and affect everyone with your Death Gas (free), Wild Shape into a Thought Slayer (free) and use your Mind-Consuming Gaze (free) and then Ethereal Jaunt (free). At the start of the next round move-action back to the material plane and repeat the entire process, taking the form of a different individual of each race so you won't have to wait 1d4 rounds to breathe again, etc. because you're not in the form of the same dragon as the last time. On your turn you obliterate everything, when it's not you turn you're ethereal and immune to almost everything in the game.

Well. That is most definitely cheese

[magic9mushroom]

Well. That is most definitely cheese

Especially since it can go Pun-Pun.

[sofawall]

correctomundo.

Technically, anything that can "pseudo-wildshape" can take MoMF.

Hengeyokai can transform nonmagically into one of like 7 or so forms, including Racoon Dog, Carp and Fox, not including Sparrow. Sure, it's underhanded and most DMs'd throw PHB I & II, Monster Manual I-V, and DMG I & II from every edition at you, but it works

Either you are wrong, or the optimizers of Gleemax, BG and GitP, as well as the book itself, are all wrong.

[JaronK]

Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage and binding Naberius. Endless free metamagic all day long (I recommend Persistant Spell). Go nuts.

JaronK

[Tokiko Mima]

Just a simple Pixie Warlock, is what I would do. It's what I always do.

[Overshee]

Just a simple Pixie Warlock, is what I would do. It's what I always do.

If you don't like the +4 LA, the Petal (MMIII) does well too.

[deuxhero]

Aint Pun-Pun under ECL 10?