D&D meets Veggie Tales...

[Admiral Squish]

Hi everyone! So, I have this idea for a game I'd like to run, but I'm facing a mechanical stumbling point. The idea is a sort of 'sandbox' game, with the players as explorers from the 'normal' world. The world they discover is completely dominated by plants. Animal life is more or less gone, with mobile plants/fungi/mosses filling their niches, along with some elementals. It goes on from there, but that's not why I'm here.

I need a few things to make this work, first and foremost being some kind of quick & easy plant/fungus template I could apply to most critters, hopefully without messing up their CR too much.

Secondly, I'd like some playground help brainstorming this world's cultural facets. What kind of culture would arise out of a civilization of elementals and sentient plants? Who's in charge? I have a few ideas on the matter, but they're all vague.

So, playground, help me out!

[Kylarra]

Manual of the Planes has a wood elemental creature template, might be a good place to start.

[Starscream]

Greenbound is in Lost Empires of Faerun. It's pretty powerful.

There is also the more balanced Woodling template from MM3. I've used that one myself, it's fun.

[Admiral Squish]

Manual of the Planes has a wood elemental creature template, might be a good place to start.

The big problem with that one is wood sense. In a setting like this, everything will basically have blindsense 60. Well, except the elementals.

Greenbound is in Lost Empires of Faerun. It's pretty powerful.

There is also the more balanced Woodling template from MM3. I've used that one myself, it's fun.

Woodling looks pretty good. +2 CR might be awkward to adjust by, but it should still be fine. I might have to simplify it a little just to make it faster to edit it in.

[lawsofrobotics]

With respect to the cultural elements, one crucial thing to think about is resource allocation. The major resources humans compete for are food and water, which is to say land for agriculture or pasture, and then rivers. The major resource plants would compete for is sunlight. What this would imply is that taller plants would immediately have shorter plants at their mercy. I can imagine, if they were sentient, a serf-lord relation developing between treant-type creatures and bush-sized creatures. The treants would protect the bushes and provide them with a place to photosynthesize, and in return the bushes would serve them and be beholden to them.

Carnivorous plants would have to have some sort of source of food. Do they eat smaller plants? That would cause photosynthesizers to most likely band together for common protection. As they are mobile, that would mean that all photosynthesizers would be able to relocate into safer places, which would form the basis of towns, where, because of space concerns, they would be even more beholden to the tallest creatures in the area.

Also, this would imply that "forests" are relatively homogenous. You don't have tendriculouses mixing with the treants, because in the absence of rodents and red meat, who is the tendriculous going to attack?

If these towns become real political entities, one must consider their relation to one another. Because photosynthesizers make their own food, they would never really need to trade for anything, nor would they make war against each other (except maybe rivaling for a particularly sunny and safe spot). These communities would, then, be incredibly isolated, perhaps not even being aware of the existence of any other, thinking that perhaps nothing exists except for their forest and surrounding wastes of carnivores.

Also, if every creature on the world is plant-based, there would be no life whatsoever outside of the tropic zone or so, because of the onset of winter outside those zones. Or else everyone in every town dies every year and then wakes up six months later. Might be interesting role-playing that.

Finally, don't expect any of these communities to be at all technologically advanced. Humans only got the chance to invent things like fire (note: fire here means burning the dead. Always.) because we needed to hunt to survive. All plants need to do is hang out in the sun for a while and they're golden. The only incentive to invent technology would be to defend against carnivores, and, as we've seen with terrestrial animals, most species don't need technology to do that.

Apologies for the block of text. I don't know where the elementals fit in. Anyone else want to field that?

[Draz74]

Finally, don't expect any of these communities to be at all technologically advanced. Humans only got the chance to invent things like fire (note: fire here means burning the dead. Always.) because we needed to hunt to survive. All plants need to do is hang out in the sun for a while and they're golden. The only incentive to invent technology would be to defend against carnivores, and, as we've seen with terrestrial animals, most species don't need technology to do that.

I'm sure they could still find ways to benefit from innovation or technology. Irrigation comes to mind.

[Vire]

wow, that was a better thought out response than i'd have expected this topic to garner. :D

[Admiral Squish]

With respect to the cultural elements, one crucial thing to think about is resource allocation. The major resources humans compete for are food and water, which is to say land for agriculture or pasture, and then rivers. The major resource plants would compete for is sunlight. What this would imply is that taller plants would immediately have shorter plants at their mercy. I can imagine, if they were sentient, a serf-lord relation developing between treant-type creatures and bush-sized creatures. The treants would protect the bushes and provide them with a place to photosynthesize, and in return the bushes would serve them and be beholden to them.

Carnivorous plants would have to have some sort of source of food. Do they eat smaller plants? That would cause photosynthesizers to most likely band together for common protection. As they are mobile, that would mean that all photosynthesizers would be able to relocate into safer places, which would form the basis of towns, where, because of space concerns, they would be even more beholden to the tallest creatures in the area.

Also, this would imply that "forests" are relatively homogenous. You don't have tendriculouses mixing with the treants, because in the absence of rodents and red meat, who is the tendriculous going to attack?

If these towns become real political entities, one must consider their relation to one another. Because photosynthesizers make their own food, they would never really need to trade for anything, nor would they make war against each other (except maybe rivaling for a particularly sunny and safe spot). These communities would, then, be incredibly isolated, perhaps not even being aware of the existence of any other, thinking that perhaps nothing exists except for their forest and surrounding wastes of carnivores.

Also, if every creature on the world is plant-based, there would be no life whatsoever outside of the tropic zone or so, because of the onset of winter outside those zones. Or else everyone in every town dies every year and then wakes up six months later. Might be interesting role-playing that.

Finally, don't expect any of these communities to be at all technologically advanced. Humans only got the chance to invent things like fire (note: fire here means burning the dead. Always.) because we needed to hunt to survive. All plants need to do is hang out in the sun for a while and they're golden. The only incentive to invent technology would be to defend against carnivores, and, as we've seen with terrestrial animals, most species don't need technology to do that.

Apologies for the block of text. I don't know where the elementals fit in. Anyone else want to field that?

I had some ideas about the elementals. Fire elementrals would be particularly important. They would take the form of nomadic warrior tribes with a semi-religious drive. If the setting was populated by Woodling creatures, they would bne particularly dangerous. They roam the countryside in tribes or armies, or possibly even swarms, burning all vegetation as a natural regulator. They would prevent overgrowth, and re-fertilize the soil as they passed.

This function would be a MAJOR shaping factor of the world. 'towns' and massive stretches of forest would be burned, leaving places for new plants to move in. The soil would be incredibly fertile, making it prime real estate. This could make conflict between plant-cultures, clashing over the finest, competition-free soil.

Water elementals would be something like hippies. Enlightened hippies. Owning nothing, they travel through the waters of the land being very chill. Treating them with disrespect of violence would mean you suddenly find your local aquifer moved.

Air elementals would be practically legends. They never go near the surface, anyway.

Earth elementals would be much like water elementals. However, they would be more useful as allies than water elementals. While you just have to treat waters with respectful distance, actively courting earths as allies would help a 'city', maintaining nutrient-rich soils near the surface and even building walls and defensive structures against the fires.

Fungal creatures would likely be rather rare. They would be treated like holy men of sorts, performing last rights on the deceased to maintain the fertility of the soil. and, of course, continue their existence.

-----------------

Now, to respond to your points in turn:

Hmm. I'm not so sure on that. Treants are supposed to be tree-lovers in the highest form. I could see treants as something more racist. beleiving trees are truly the highest form of plant-life, and thus deserve the sunlight. The bushes would be more a repressed and abused minority.

'Carnivorous' plants would be nonexistant, though there would be herbivores that feed on other plants. Some would be mobile grazers that would feed on non-mobile plants, others would be hunters that feed on the grazers. The same woody, vine-like material that makes a grazer plant mobile makes them particularly juicy meals. Really, purely hunter plants would probably be a rarity, likely evolved out of the grazers themselves.

Homogenous forests would likely be a must. Towns would be the next logical step. Large groups of 'grazers' forming protective groups, or mobile 'bush' synthesizers working together to prevent the treant domination. HEck, even tribes of 'hunters' would band together to form packs, in all likelihood. This doesn't even require sentience yet, just mobility.

Towns as political entities seems likely. Likely intelligent hunters would eventually come to an accord with intelligent mobile plants of all sorts, resolving to feed only on the unthinking and, lending their strength against the fires, in exhange for the strength numbers bring against the fires and larger unthinking hunters. If they remained mobile, only entering the towns in times of crisis, they could bring tales of other cities. Or, they could remain as 'outsiders' within individual cities, leaving in the mornings and coming back in the evening with their kills, seeking the shelter of the city against nocturnal fungi hunters. Similarly, mobile fungi, with their meandering lifestyle, would probably be well-traveled as well.

As for the tropic zone, we're working with fantasy physics, here. I can say the whole planet is capable of supporting life year round, if I want. Though having deciduous areas might be interesting, as well.

With the looming threat of fire attacks and fending off treant dominators, we now have motivation for creativity and development in the military sector, which is how most developments are made in the first place. Synths would have nothing to do but think and discuss all day in their collectives. Not sure if that would be enough to counteract their sedentary lifestyles in terms of mental evolution, however.

DOUBLE WALL OF TEXT GO!

[Fiery Diamond]

This...would be an awesome campaign to play in. Keep brainstorming, I like it.

[Admiral Squish]

I'm glad it meets with your approval

I might actually run it here at some point.

[BishFish]

in MM 3 there is a woodling template. I'm not exactly sure what it does to CR and stuff, but you should check it out. Also there is stuff like Myocin which I think is in MM 2.

[Lycanthromancer]

Oozes and vermin should be rampant; the first as a sort of proto-plant, and the second for obvious reasons. Perhaps the carnivorous plants should eat the verm, and most of the plant people should be convinced that the PCs are vermin, since the plant/vermin paradigm is pretty much all they know.

Also, you should either let rogues sneak attack plants, give them an equivalent ability as an ACF, or convince them to play factotums instead.

[Admiral Squish]

Oozes and vermin should be rampant; the first as a sort of proto-plant, and the second for obvious reasons. Perhaps the carnivorous plants should eat the verm, and most of the plant people should be convinced that the PCs are vermin, since the plant/vermin paradigm is pretty much all they know.

Also, you should either let rogues sneak attack plants, give them an equivalent ability as an ACF, or convince them to play factotums instead.

Hmm... I could see oozes as fungi. It fits them better. As for vermin, the typical insectoid roles are taken care of by plant alternatives. I could see plant-people as thinking they were fungi, though. That would make more sense, with the spongy, pale skins and all.

I think I'll just have to house-rule that precision damage still applies, in all its forms.

On the issue of fungi, I have this image of nocturnal fungus predators forcing the plants back into their cities each night. Is there a fungal template anywhere?

[Lycanthromancer]

Hmm... I could see oozes as fungi. It fits them better. As for vermin, the typical insectoid roles are taken care of by plant alternatives. I could see plant-people as thinking they were fungi, though. That would make more sense, with the spongy, pale skins and all.

I think I'll just have to house-rule that precision damage still applies, in all its forms.

On the issue of fungi, I have this image of nocturnal fungus predators forcing the plants back into their cities each night. Is there a fungal template anywhere?

I do believe there's an ooze creature template. Don't recall where it's from.

Living spells would be awesome, though. Make an alter self/polymorph ooze, and there you go.

Also, gibbering mouthers and phasms.

[edit] What about undead? Undead plants?

Nightshades?

[Admiral Squish]

I do believe there's an ooze creature template. Don't recall where it's from.

Living spells would be awesome, though. Make an alter self/polymorph ooze, and there you go.

Also, gibbering mouthers and phasms.

[edit] What about undead? Undead plants?

Nightshades?

That could work (It's from savage species), but I'm looking more for 'made of mushrooms'. if it does not exist, I must make it exist. I think trolls should be a fungus.

That idea vaguely terrifies me.

Hmm. I could see phasms. Gibbering mouther is pushing it, though.

Undead plants, huh? I could allow zombies, but skeletons would be wierd. Everything else is case-by-case. I'm forced to wonder how far magic has developed in a plant-based society. Probably nature magic is widespread. Druids and rangers and all that. But wizardry?

Necromancy in this realm would likely be quite hampered, due to the lack of skeletons involved.

[timbuck_hunter]

One of my favorite plant monsters is the orcwort, you might want to look into it (MM2) for the wortling followers.

My suggestion is to do a lot of research with a biology textbook or two. You can find some interesting things if you look around enough. For example, the biggest trees in the world are actually a forest that is all one plant connected underground through their roots, or that there are fungi that attack insects and burst forth from the insects brain and spread their spores that way (no joke). The real world often has stranger things than any Monster Manual. :)

Second suggestion, keep insectoids in the campaign, it won't really detract from the flavor too much as it would make sense. Getting rid of mammals is plenty to throw everyone off. Getting rid of everything but plants and fungi is quite the step.

Finally, have fun!

[Jokes]

But wizardry?

Big trees require big bees. Big Bees could be the wizards... And they should focus on hand spells to do all the hive work.

C'mon, it's worth it just for that pun

[Lycanthromancer]

Big trees require big bees. Big Bees could be the wizards... And they should focus on hand spells to do all the hive work.

C'mon, it's worth it just for that pun

"You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

Wouldn't plants need vermin for pollination? Bees, flies, butterflies, et al? Though birds do take care of a good number of plants (but we don't want to kill too many catgirls; we need them for genetic experiments). Plant biology is (usually) completely alien to animal biology, and the reverse is true. You'd definitely have the fantasy-plant-equivalent of scientific researchers who would want to watch mammalian mating practices, and would have very strange ideas of what it means to be 'male' or 'female'.

In fact, the gender roles and mating rituals of plant-based societies might very well be quite...strange.

[Vizzerdrix]

"You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

Wouldn't plants need vermin for pollination? Bees, flies, butterflies, et al? Though birds do take care of a good number of plants (but we don't want to kill too many catgirls; we need them for genetic experiments). Plant biology is (usually) completely alien to animal biology, and the reverse is true. You'd definitely have the fantasy-plant-equivalent of scientific researchers who would want to watch mammalian mating practices, and would have very strange ideas of what it means to be 'male' or 'female'.

In fact, the gender roles and mating rituals of plant-based societies might very well be quite...strange.

Is that an apple in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? XD

[faceroll]

Plants generate huge amounts of waste material, and it needs to be recycled back into nutrients the plants can use. Here's where you could add the oozes & fungi, which aren't photosynthesizers, but detritivores. Plants could trade leaves to the fungus in exchange for fertilizer.

I imagine politics would be very slow, with decisions taking decades or centuries to be made. Wars would last hundreds or thousands of years, because of the annual cessation necessary during winter months, and the fact that trees just seem like they'd be slow moving, thoughtful creatures that take a long time to do anything.

I think plants would be more in tune with what's around them, since they will have a tendency to move a lot less.

[Draz74]

In Warhammer 40k, I believe Orcs (er, Orks) are of the vegetable kingdom.

[Corporate M]

If you're planning to do this online, I'd love to be a part of that.

I don't know if by normal world you would mean d20 modern type normal or D&D type normal. If D&D type normal, take plant as a favored enemy of ranger or just be a warmage and watch the world burn. >: )

Or if a normal real world type guy. Maybe not quite as much fun, but heaven forbid I should be a smoker and just happen to have a lighter on me.

I only wish this was the first time I've been faced with the question "I'm in a new world with all these strange and aluring creatures. I don't know where I am, or the physiology of anything... I'm going to kill everything untill it makes sense!!!" lol


I could see the plants having a firm distrust of any non-plant creature. Fowl eating their fetuses, mammals just eating them as a whole. Aquatic plant life would be even rougher.

I could see some very interesting RP experiences like seeing a jar of applesauce and the veggie world thinks humans are sick-sick bastards... lol!

[Vizzerdrix]

I can see warforged with Ironwood body feat kicking around.


Also, one of the Dragon Mags has an alternitive to animal companion that lets the druid grow a plant monster thingy instead.

also ALSO, I know I've seen a plant familiar in a 3rd party book. I'll keep an eye out for it and post it when I find it.

[Zom B]

Wouldn't plants need vermin for pollination? Bees, flies, butterflies, et al?

Which brings up another good point: One of the things that makes large plants feasible is earthworms. They eat the dead leaves that have fallen at the bases of trees, and so they create tunnel systems near trees that help water and air to better reach the root system. Otherwise, I believe a tree consumes more nutrients than can be replenished in one plot of soil just by rainfall alone. I'm no botanist, so that thought could be wrong.

[Admiral Squish]

I'm still not sure on the vermin issue. I originally intended little plant-vermin to take care of pollination and other things, the point being 'animal' life as we know it never developed. Insects, while low on the evolutionary chain, are still animals. ALL the animal niches are filled by plant equivalents. From grassy bees to vegetable elephants to fungal earthworms.

Actually, there's a whole family of that brain-fungus. Each affects a specific species of insect, from centipedes to ants. It not only pops out of their head, it actually infects and controls their mind, urging them to climb as high as they can to help ensure a wider spread of spores. THEN it breaks out of their skull and blooms.

As for mating, that is an interesting question. Are they hermaphroditic? Do males display? Do they depend on pollinators, or do they require an actual 'mating'? Pollinators would 'bee' odd, because a lady-plant could get 'pregnant' in the middle of an adventure without ever copulating...

I would think either the plants would domesticate some unintelligent detrivores to manage their wastes, or they would invite fungals into their cities to their mutual benefit.

I wouldn't think their political process would be any more slow than ours. I mean, there would likely be more resistance to change from the older groups, because they can be REALLY old. However, if it works with elves, then it should work with these guys, too.

The original intention was making this in normal-fantasy, though this could be developed any number of ways. Assume D&D standard for now, we'll work from there.

That's the thing, you and your party would be the first 'meat' beings to walk this place. They wouldn't know about ducks at all, because their version of a 'duck' evolved out of a water lily.

As for warforged, I don't know. I could see it as reasonable to have wood constructs be about, but I'm not decided if they should have that level of magic available in the arcane spectrum. Especially mass production. A ironwood warforged would actually fit in better here than anyone else.

Well, most detrivores are replaced with fungal versions. Fungi would also become the top predators, because they would subsist entirely on plant life, with no alternatives available to them.

[Lycanthromancer]

On the issue of fungi...

Don't forget to add in The Mushroom Kingdom! (Keep watching for a couple of episodes. It actually gets good.)

[Admiral Squish]

I am torn on this one. My scientist-brain tells me that a kingdom of mushrooms wouldn't work, because there would be no influx of dead-plant food matter, except by trade, and that could just end up weird. My comedian-brain demands I make a mushroom kingdom, just so I can have a 'princess peach' and make players groan.

[Lycanthromancer]

I am torn on this one. My scientist-brain tells me that a kingdom of mushrooms wouldn't work, because there would be no influx of dead-plant food matter, except by trade, and that could just end up weird. My comedian-brain demands I make a mushroom kingdom, just so I can have a 'princess peach' and make players groan.

And a princess daisy, don't forget.

Well, the mushroom kingdom should be in the equivalent of the underdark, where the sewage systems of the other plant kingdoms drain (via big green pipes).

That gets to the root of the problem, eh?

[Admiral Squish]

And a princess daisy, don't forget.

Well, the mushroom kingdom should be in the equivalent of the underdark, where the sewage systems of the other plant kingdoms drain (via big green pipes).

That gets to the root of the problem, eh?

...That is so absolutely horrible, and yet, beautiful in it's simplicity.

I could actually see that. A centralized main 'kingdom' of fungus that makes massive-scale deals with the plants above for their waste (and possibly extra in the form of tools, weapons, gold, goods...) in exchange for nutrient-rich soil. The outlying tunnels of the underdark are shipping lanes for these valuable resources. Long-standing alliances with the earths provide the means to transport and protect these goods as they come back to the central kingdom.

[Lycanthromancer]

...That is so absolutely horrible, and yet, beautiful in it's simplicity.

Now, how are we going to work in the power-ups? Super mushrooms and whatnot.

Fireflowers give you heartburn? Perhaps those are flaming poo-balls that Mario throws. Fireball has a material component, don't forget...